1/32 Dragon Messerschmitt Bf110 D-3 7/ZG 26 3U + MR

[mc65]

as regards the number of crew members, I read, I think in the book "ace if diamonds", that even when the third member was not essential, the crews insisted on having him with them in the transitions from one type to another of the same plane, or even on other planes designed as two-seaters, such as the He219.
it was not a technical question but a human one, not wanting to disperse the small human group that had been created.
the third man in fact would have been destined for other non-flight jobs.

[nmayhew]

Hi guys,

 

Per John Vasco in his ‘An Illustrated Study’ book, the Bordfunker (radio operator) had two seats, but the crew complement was definitely two, not three. The DML kit is indeed accurate in its seat depiction.

 

Coming at it from a different angle, I have the Luftwaffe Crash Archive set of books which details every Luftwaffe plane downed on UK soil (or off our coasts)… the 110 Cs Ds and Es downed all show 2 crew. Maybe the the third crewman was the lucky charm each flight?

 

Admittedly it was a very quick flick through but but I couldn’t find data on the Fs. Interested to see pictures of non-Gs with 3 man crew…

 

Anyway, I guess it’s all moot unless you are putting a 1/32 third crewman in there lol

 

Cheers

Nick

[mozart]

This is an extract from Peter Hinchliffe's book "Ace of Diamonds", a biography of Heinz Wolfgang Schnaufer.  The first time Willem Gansler flew with Schnaufer and Rumpelhardt was 23 September 1943; it's interesting that Gansler's role is described, not as a rear gunner (I've read that Schanufer had the rear machine guns removed to decrease weight and therefore increase speed but never seen concrete evidence) but as an extra pair of eyes.  I think at this time in his career he was flying a Bf110F, but I can't be certain.....could have been a converted G2.

 

 

Sorry for the thread drift Andy!

Edited May 10, 2022 by mozart

[monthebiff]

14 minutes ago, mozart said:

This is an extract from Peter Hinchliffe's book "Ace of Diamonds", a biography of Heinz Wolfgang Schnaufer.  The first time Willem Gansler flew with Schnaufer and Rumpelhardt was 23 September 1943; it's interesting that Gansler's role is described, not as a rear gunner (I've read that Schanufer had the rear machine guns removed to decrease weight and therefore increase speed but never seen concrete evidence) but as an extra pair of eyes.  I think at this time in his career he was flying a Bf110F, but I can't be certain.....could have been a converted G2.

 

 

Sorry for the thread drift Andy!

Drift away chaps, all very interesting stuff!

 

Regards. Andy 

[MikeMaben]

PROOF  !!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2022 by MikeMaben

[nmayhew]

7 hours ago, MikeMaben said:

PROOF  !!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nice pic

 

what mark is this? with that armament presumably F onwards, but that is supposition nothing less.

 

I will still point to the crash data: I find it unbelievable that no C, D or E with 3 crew was shot down - that third guy was the lucky charm every single flight lol

 

Now if 3 crew were only in Dackelbuch Ds or Fs and beyond, fair enough; we need John Vasco but I don’t know he posts on forums anymore?

 

I’ll try to ask on the Luftwaffe Research Group, but may take a while.

 

Great pic though - very atmospheric.

 

kind regards 

Nick

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mozart]

It has two aerial wires going to the mast, so certainly a G, but possibly an F, I'll have to research when and why the second wire was introduced.  It does however appear to have the remote control unit on the port cockpit side which was associated with the underbelly circular loop aerial, which is not on G models. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by mozart

[IainM]

12 hours ago, nmayhew said:

 

Nice pic

 

what mark is this? with that armament presumably F onwards, but that is supposition nothing less.

 

I will still point to the crash data: I find it unbelievable that no C, D or E with 3 crew was shot down - that third guy was the lucky charm every single flight lol

 

Now if 3 crew were only in Dackelbuch Ds or Fs and beyond, fair enough; we need John Vasco but I don’t know he posts on forums anymore?

 

I’ll try to ask on the Luftwaffe Research Group, but may take a while.

 

Great pic though - very atmospheric.

 

kind regards 

Nick

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

11 hours ago, mozart said:

It has two aerial wires going to the mast, so certainly a G, but possibly an F, I'll have to research when and why the second wire was introduced.  It does however appear to have the remote control unit on the port cockpit side which was associated with the underbelly circular loop aerial, which is not on G models. 

@nmayhew Yes, it's a pity that John Vasco isn't on these forums! He'd help to sort his out! I do remember that when I was doing my Dragon C-7 to C-3 conversion, I posted that on either the FB Night Fighters or 1/32 scale a/c pages - and he chipped in! And then he helped me along with the main and more obscure changes that I needed to make...veritable rabbit hole!

Anyway, on page 139 of his book, he has a picture of an E-3 with the dual aerial leads - but that was changed to single at the C-1 to C-2 variant, when they changed from the FuG 111 U to the FuG X .....more questions that perhaps only the guys who flew that a/c would have been able to answer...

@mozart In my VERY limited knowledge I'd put that as an F, with some other field-fitted radio equipment that required that extra lead. Reason for that is I'm looking at the canopy glazing - as far as I'm aware the G's had the fixed rear canopy over the rear armament, with the opening portion just behind that. F's IMO were the last of the line to have the rear cockpit opening where the rear MG's were. So as far as I'm aware, if it was a G, there would be no way that crewman could have been standing there?



 

[monthebiff]

Interesting picture this one and without the crew members moving out of the way my guess is it would be an F as Iain alludes to as well. Equally it could be a staged picture of an earlyish G with the rear section of the canopy removed for something or other. 

 

Regards. Andy 

[MikeMaben]

It's from an issue of 'Luftwaffe Im Focus" No.4 2004. It's a C-5  5D+JL  Russia summer of '41.

It later was one of about 50 C-5s and E-3s that were modified with the rearward facing periscope

and side guns. From 3.(F)/31 which had a 'crab' emblem.

 

 

 

 

[MikeMaben]

2 wires ...

Check out this 109 style insulator on the fuselage ...

 

 

Early with unpainted prop blades ...

 

 

 

D with one unpainted blade ??

 

hth

[monthebiff]

Some excellent shots there Mile and definitely a case of check your references when choosing your subject matter.

 

Regards. Andy 

[monthebiff]

Some more progress over the weekend,  first up I've fitted the upper cockpit panel.

 

 

 

 

Also have both wings completed over the weekend 

 

 

And with the wings complete I turned my attention back to the 900litre drop tanks. I touched on these earlier in the build but put them to one side til the wings where sorted. I have the Profimodeller set as the Dragon supplied items are wrongly shaped in many ways but the Profimodeller set has its own problems as well. The first problem is a big rough casting plug and lots of clean up needed around it

 

 

 

The rough nose section was cleaned up and then HpH 2 part resin was used as filler and then the nose was sanded smooth.

 

 

I then replaced the straps around the tank with plastic stock and then 

added brass wire with plastic card wrapped around for the pylons as,I felt the Profimodeller etched set was a little 2D and not really close to the images I have of these tanks

 

 

 

Followed by a test fit to the wing

 

 

 

Happy so far and just need to finish the details and add the tail fin and the its one down and one to go!

 

Regards. Andy 

[LSP_Kevin]

Nice progress, Andy!

 

Kev

[IainM]

That great work on those support braces! Def WAY better than the brass offerings!!! Looks a treat!