Tamiya P-51D to Mustang IV - questions

[Jboldt007]

just joined. returned to the hobby after a hiatus of ... well... a very long time- decades I guess. Usual reasons. Anywho I'm back in the saddle and have a number of builds on the go. As with most newbs (I kind of consider myself one now) one tends to get in a bit over their heads on AM stuff and such. But I had planned to do an early P-51D and got the [excellent] Quinta Studios early cockpit decals and some other things - until Top Notch came out just recently with their masks for the RCAF 442 sq. Mustang IVs and, being a Canuck, that sealed the deal. So, there are good photos of the 442 Mustangs ... but I really can't find anything reliable on the cockpit layouts of these Mustangs. Not critical as in the end, not much is really visible in the end. the serial numbers of the 442's Mustangs seem to coincide with early model P-51D's but who knows. I presume they didn't have late war doo-dads like the radio beacon equipment and such (not visible in photos anyway). 

 

The most visible thing seems to be the use of louvered vents versus the perforated vents on the engine cowl underside of the P-51D's- this seems to be a commonwealth feature related to a trop fit-out (Australia/ New Zealand)? Anyway the 442 Mustangs clearly have these. Fortunately. Red Roos makes these louvres in 1/32 and i snagged them from Ultracast. So should be good on that front. Any other observations welcome.  Once I figure our how to host photos i can post some build stuff. 

[LSP_Kevin]

Welcome aboard, sir!

 

 

Good to see yet another lost soul rejoining the hobby (I should try doing the same, I guess). Good luck with your project!

 

As for posting photos, you'll have to upload them to a third-party hosting site first, and then link them in your posts here.

 

Kev

[R Palimaka]

Welcome to the group! It's a friendly and helpful bunch, and always the first site I check. Always good to add another Canadian to the bunch. Looking forward to watching your build once you get organized!

 

I'm probably misreading your post, but the RAF didn't use the early P-51D with the filletless tail in service, although I think they got a couple for testing. 

 

If I remember, three differences were:

-RAF Sutton seat harness was fitted in place of the USAAF version,

-the RAF did not accept the AN/APS-13 tail warning radar so that was removed from the cockpit, although in rare cases the antenna can still  be seen on the vertical tail. 

-louvred covers to the carb intake on some not all Mark IVs (the louvres were also fitted to many Mk.IIIs). 

 

The RAF had intended to install the Gyro Gunsight but most photos I've seen of Mustang IV cockpits had the N-9 fitted. (Oddly enough I have photos of the Gyro sight installed in Mk. IIIs) So the cockpit and radio fit would have been the same, minus the rear warning radar panel. 

 

442 Squadron flew a mix of P-51Ds and Ks, so depending on the particular aircraft you might need different props. But it sounds like you'll be doing one of the camouflaged versions of which there are plenty of photos. 

 

This is the N-9 gunsight:

 

 

And here it is installed in a Mustang IV (P-51K) of 303 Squadron Polish AIr Force:

 

I'll see if I can find a closer photo or drawing of the installation. 

 

Richard

 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by R Palimaka

[MikeC]

Hi, and

 

Mustang IV was a P-51D, Mustang IVa was a P-51K. I think I have a listing of serial batches for each somewhere, I'll have a look.

[LSP_Ron]

Welcome to LSP

[MikeMaben]

Hey J ,  welcome back       Have fun.

[Jboldt007]

thanks for the quick replies. yes to clarify i was originally going to do a USAAF fillet-less model  then switched to the Mustang IV for reasons noted plus its gnarly yellow anti-glare + camo livery. to be honest I've already glued in the gyro gunsight. i couldn't tell from photos (even the close-ups of 'Edmonton Special') but figured it was so late in the war they (gyros) must have been used. I have the serial numbers for late 442 and most seem to be D's as opposed to K's but yeah should confirm. I was looking at like H-2K or T-2k or one of those very late '45: camo not aluminum. These all seemed to have the louvered carb intakes. No sigs of the tail warning radar antenna. Didn't realize the sutton hardness though. Dang. Hmmm. that could be a bit of onion in the ointment. 

 

NB: my brother is tech-y and is helping me with the third party hosting...

[R Palimaka]

I wouldn't stress over the gunsight. That's a logical assumption to make that late in the war. If you look closely at some photos of Y2-T though, you can see the size of the sight glass which would indicate the N-9. As for the harness, if you're at a point in construction where you can still get the correct one, do it if that would make you happier knowing it's right. But that's what it all comes down to, as long as you're happy with what you've done then that's all that matters. It's that classic dilemma for modellers...95% of the people who see the model won't know if it's accurate, but you will. 

 

As for your choices of aircraft to build, both Y2-T (KH668) and Y2-H (KH647) were Mustang IVs (or P-51Ds) so the cuffed Hamilton Standard prop is fine. On April 16, 1945 the pilots flying those two aircraft (Y2-H F/O Len Wilson, Y2-T F/O "Rocky' Robillard) scored a shared victory over a FW-190 on April 16, 1945. Another camouflaged Mustang successful that day was Y2-J (KH659) flown by an American, F/O Vince Shenk, who was credited with a probable over a FW-190. These three aircraft scored the last kills of the war for 442 Squadron. Sorry...that's the end of the lecture.

 

Hope you get the photo hosting sorted, it's quite easy once you get the hang of it.

 

Richard 

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by R Palimaka

[Jboldt007]

thanks for the quick replies. yes to clarify i was originally going to do a USAAF fillet-less model  then switched to the Mustang IV for reasons noted plus its gnarly yellow anti-glare + camo livery. to be honest I've already glued in the gyro gunsight. i couldn't tell from photos (even the close-ups of 'Edmonton Special') but figured it was so late in the war they (gyros) must have been used. I have the serial numbers for late 442 and most seem to be D's as opposed to K's but yeah should confirm. I was looking at like H-2K or T-2k or one of those very late '45: camo not aluminum. These all seemed to have the louvered carb intakes. No sigs of the tail warning radar antenna. Didn't realize the sutton hardness though. Dang. Hmmm. that could be a bit of onion in the ointment. 

 

NB: my brother is tech-y and is helping me with the third party hosting...

[Jboldt007]

thanks for the info - and stories (that's half the fun). i can triage the gunsight  - not a big deal. It seems plans were afoot to have the N9 replaced by the gyro but then the war ended. So it could be a "what if" . I did check the props too. But clearly in looking at the harness issue more it should be the Sutton quick release model - i had started putting together the kit belts before switching to the Mustang IV idea so I am the author of my own misfortune. This i can fix too (just another online order and some snips) but now i'm wondering about the seat. My understanding is the early seat was used in some very early P-51Ds but most would have had the later simplified pan seat/ back. But the serial numbers for these 442 Mustang IVs seem to correspond to early ( 5 series) P-51Ds? I couldn't find any reliable info on this. Existing planes today and post war fit-outs could just have had the later seat installed as an expediency as you rarely see the older seats. The back/pack life preserver / seat cushion debate seems to be another rabbit hole...

[R Palimaka]

There was a good discussion recently about the seats here on LSP.  Both the Warren-McArthur and Schick-Johnson were used throughout the D/K production run, with the Warren-McArthur bucket appearing with the early Ds. For example, the RCAF post-war Mustangs were D-25s and D-30s, with a few D-20s, and both styles of seats are found in photos.

 

The thread started with P-51B/Cs but expanded from there:

 

P51 seats

 

Richard

Edited February 22, 2022 by R Palimaka

[Jboldt007]

thanks - that's an interesting thread... i think i'm ok with the "late" seat as far as I can tell.

[Jboldt007]

my first attempt at posting a photo. This is part of "franken-cockpit". You can see the gyro sight which I now realize is incorrect - should be an N9 early sight. The cat fur is not prototypical either...

 

[Bill Bunting]

Hello! I too am new here but I've been a Britmodeller for many years.

 

I have Mustang IV in the planning stages.  It will be finished as the restored 442 Sqn. Y2-C at Vintage Wings Canada.  I'm doing it in 1/32 and 1/48.  1/32 for me and 1/48 for my friend Dave.  

 

Louvres are required and the photos I've seen show a number of 442 Sqn. Mustangs with the 'cuffless' props including the restored one I'm replicating.  These are both available in the Tamiya P-51K kit and the Eduard 1/48. 

 

Thanks for the info on the masks - I will look them up.  

 

PS I will be following thus and your Lancaster nose art build ad that is on my list ( unless I get that Border Model kit).

 

Cheers.

[R Palimaka]

On 2/28/2022 at 5:04 PM, Jboldt007 said:

my first attempt at posting a photo. This is part of "franken-cockpit". You can see the gyro sight which I now realize is incorrect - should be an N9 early sight. The cat fur is not prototypical either...

 

 

 

That's great! You've got the photo posting figured out, and an excellent job on the cockpit so far! 

 

The cat fur is out of scale anyway. 

 

Richard

Edited March 2, 2022 by R Palimaka