Border Model's Statement Regarding Lancaster Legal Issues

[Lee White]

57 minutes ago, eoyguy said:

 

 

As an aside, military vehicles can be copyrighted. When Tamiya first came out with a new Jeep in 1/35, they had some issues with Chrysler who own the Jeep brand. I believe they ended up coming to an agreement with Chrysler, and the Jeep name on the box has a Registered copyright symbol showing that they have that permission to use the name.

 

 

IIRC,the Jeep element that got Tamiya in trouble was the trademarked 7-vertical slot grill, which only Jeeps can have.

[Kenneth]

3 hours ago, Violator1991 said:

The "real" IP of an aircraft belongs to an aircraft manufacturer of course. No company other than that may claim rights for that, regarding the design of the airplane.

When it comes to its model, no model manufacturer can claim ownership on the design, which would be stupid of course..

 

But downsizing an aircraft to a scale, creating a "model", designing a part breakdown, designing its moulds to produce it, developing assembly methods is purely subject to intellectual property rights.

 

How this will end between Border and PJ totally depends on the mould fabricator's contract with PJ. If they are professional enough to have such articles in the contract which enables them to confiscate the mould in case no payment is made... then PJ must fire his lawyers in no minute.

 

On the other hand why a multimillionare like PJ does not pay, say 1 million dollars, for this project of passsion needs explanation of course.

 

 

 

Did you read my earlier post? Obviously not. There are no rights, particularly regarding the parts breakdown, moulds and assembly methods, unless corresponding applications have been filed and granted.

[Pup7309]

13 hours ago, mark williams said:

PJs lawyers could perhaps use the nz trade commission for a bit of help...theres a lot to be said about keeping business all together in your own country!

 

Good point. Though wasn’t there some controversy about him getting tax payer money to help WNW and TVAL. Anyway if Border fails at this that probably rules out seeing the Handley Page

[Pup7309]

8 hours ago, Dave Williams said:

I believe that Border is being entirely truthful about the fact of how they got the molds and what they had to do to finish and get the kit ready to market.  The real legal question here is whether they had the legal right to buy the molds, or whether the company who had the molds had the legal right to sell them.  Also, regarding WNW being the bad guy in this situation, at this point it’s not WNW the company we knew a few years ago.  It’s Peter Jackson himself doing this, who’s basically all that’s left of WNW.

Good points. Maybe only Chinese people will be able to build them if Border loose their international legal battle. The molds will be staying in China no matter what I imagine 

[Pup7309]

8 hours ago, wunwinglow said:

This story would make a good film.....

 

They could use the test shots for opening scene…

[Pup7309]

7 hours ago, VMA131Marine said:

One thing that nobody has mentioned, while arguing ad Infiniti’s about IP rights, is the legal strategy at play here. Plain and simple Sir PJ wants a piece of that Border Models Lancaster action; he wants Border to negotiate for the rights to produce the kit in exchange for a share of the profits. Lest you think that this is too small an amount to be trifled with, I’ll remind you that Donald Trump once signed and cashed a check for less than a dollar sent a a prank by a journalist to see who among wealthy people would cash checks that small. In this instance were probably talking an ask of US$100,000 or more. Why else would he wait until now to issue the cease and desist.

It’s true follow the money. But for PJ this is also his passion or nemesis as one person put it.

[Pup7309]

4 hours ago, LSP_K2 said:

I have to say, this has been the best read I've had here in months. I really have no opinion one way or another about the legal challenges, but I hope those that want the kit can eventually get them, and at a reasonable cost.

WNW keeps on giving for the threads…

[Pup7309]

3 hours ago, Out2gtcha said:

I'm pretty much in Timm and K2s corner here, I really have no want or desire for the kit, but the read itself and the surrounding dust up is fascinating. 

It’s almost making me want it now! See what you did there Border…

[Bob MDC]

I would think that the WNW lawyers are from the cinema based copyright industry, I worked with a similar company when I was doing the LoR minis for the evil empire. These guys were mustard nice people but very very good at what they did and I would think that all options have been covered.

They are going for the supply chain and not the manufacturer as they will have more clout outside China.

 

On another note on the IP not only was the model copyright but the concept work was also cover this enabled greater control over the production, so if the work was not up to spec it did not happen.

 

Bob

[Pup7309]

Interesting thread. Even though IP doesn’t exist much in China and their Govt is what it is. They are practical people and the letter whilst not that formal seems genuine. But what the truth is and what the legal / outcome is to be…we watch with anticipation because just maybe it will affect whether we see the ex WNW stuff being re popped again. 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Pup7309

[Brown Baron]

4 hours ago, Paramedic said:

So.. Kinda on topic - but how does it work when model companies make a model of an aircraft? I assumed that for example a P-51D of Tamiya or Eduard, which is endorsed - or licensed? By Boeing, the current "successor" of North American Aviation through merges and whatnot, actually okayed it, maybe even helped out and possibly got some kind of license money from it?

 

If that is how it works, do they have to seek that endorsement? Or is it a license you need (atleast to sell it in the US for example)?

 

I have heard, but I am not sure of how correct, that SAAB for example, seems quite nice about it and helps out - for free. (For example when the game War thunder made some of their aircraft, they okayed it and did not demand any payment - but that is what I have heard..)

 

Maybe different for digital "models" in a computer game and a plastic kit too?

 

Even through my weird "English", I think you understand what I am asking?

My local hobby store has many aircraft kits with Boeing or Lockheed logos on them due to an IP dispute from those companies some years ago 

[frothingillbellows]

We have seen it all before with hugely talented dynamic geniuses who’s ambitions have no ceilings or limits. When their high risk high reward projects succeed they have to aim higher still next time  and the chances of further success diminish and likelihood of failure increase. The Lancaster project was such, a diabolically ambitious project for the model world. When these geniuses fail, the huge egos cannot not tolerate it and lose their mojo. Their dynamism now works against them. He would rather destroy the project and deny it for all rather than see someone else succeed with it where he had failed. It’s not matter of money. This was always and still is a high investment low profit project. He would now rather lose more money to ensure its failure. He really needs to step back, chill out and re-assess his life and priorities. 

 

 

 

[LSP_Kevin]

2 minutes ago, frothingillbellows said:

We have seen it all before with hugely talented dynamic geniuses who’s ambitions have no ceilings or limits. When their high risk high reward projects succeed they have to aim higher still next time  and the chances of further success diminish and likelihood of failure increase. The Lancaster project was such, a diabolically ambitious project for the model world. When these geniuses fail, the huge egos cannot not tolerate it and lose their mojo. Their dynamism now works against them. He would rather destroy the project and deny it for all rather than see someone else succeed with it where he had failed. It’s not matter of money. This was always and still is a high investment low profit project. He would now rather lose more money to ensure its failure. He really needs to step back, chill out and re-assess his life and priorities. 

 

 

 

 

I think you'll find that in reality, Peter Jackson has had very little to do with any of this, personally. Control of his companies and business affairs has been ceded to the bean counters, and they're the ones who have called in the lawyers (and forced the closure of Wingnut Wings). PJ is really just a figurehead, who has had his...ahem...wings clipped.

 

Kev

[firefly7]

With such a low volume of kits expected to be sold, why can't Border just sell them direct to consumers themselves. skip the middlemen, after all wasn't this WNW method for half it's life. 

 

 

 

[azzaob]

14 hours ago, Tony T said:

I wish Border well, and hope they recover their investment more quickly through direct sales.

 

If this was a pet project of Sir PJ he should, perhaps, have coughed-up the not insignificant money WnW allegedly owes as a loan to his own company. I really think this is a case of sour grapes, but the Lancaster has been his nemesis — the Dambusters film didn't happen either. 

 

Tony

 

 

I think the The Vintage Aviator fiasco/guy was his nemesis, it seems to have started the ball rolling on much of WnW's closure...temporary closure? etc...

But yeah,  a pity to see what was clearly a passion project for many end up like this.