Making a comeback and a question

[Collin]

Centerline tank, 4x AIM-9, 2x AIM-7 in aft wells, TERS under winder rails with either 82-slick or MK-20 ROCKEYE. 
 

Forward well Sparrow launch an issue with the centerline attached, that’s why you typically only see them in the aft wells. 
 

Cheers

Collin

[MikeMaben]

Glad you're getting back into it, it's a good feeling eh ?  

[ziggyfoos]

Welcome back Eli

 

I'd second what Peter said, it really depends on squadron and period.

Along with the centerline tank, VF-143 in 72/73 WESTPAC for example would "typically" carry two rear Sparrows and four Sidewinders, but put full TER of Mk.81s (6 total) on the outer pylon rather than putting the TER on the inner. 

With Marines you'd have a whole lot of other varied possibilities of loadouts.

[Patrick HMD]

Ola Maestro.  Bienvenido.

[thierry laurent]

Eeeeehhh, Eli!!! Glad to see you again and happy to know you feel better and restart modelling LSP! 

 

I'm somewhat late regarding your questions but others replied perfectly. So, you're covered. 

 

Note that in spite of the fact a lot of modellers love putting four Sparrows under the belly of their F-4 kits, the two missiles configuration was actually very common on bombers for warload and range reasons. 

 

 

[Tony T]

Yes, my mistake Eli, two AIM-7E-2's in just the aft wells on most Navy jets in the 1971-73 timeframe.

 

The Navy were focusing tactics more on Sidewinder and obviously were burning off fuel from the F-4J's aft internal tank early so didn't need a missile counterbalance in the front wells (like, say, the RAF, which used dummy Sparrow body blue ballast in the front wells to counterbalance the no.7 fuel cell).

 

All the best

 

Tony 

[Collin]

18 hours ago, Tony T said:

Yes, my mistake Eli, two AIM-7E-2's in just the aft wells on most Navy jets in the 1971-73 timeframe.

 

The Navy were focusing tactics more on Sidewinder and obviously were burning off fuel from the F-4J's aft internal tank early so didn't need a missile counterbalance in the front wells (like, say, the RAF, which used dummy Sparrow body blue ballast in the front wells to counterbalance the no.7 fuel cell).

 

All the best

 

Tony 

With a centerline tank installed the Sparrows in the forward wells (if loaded) are inhibited from being launched. Tactically a disadvantage if you had to slow to jettison the tank to use the forward Sparrows pre-engagement....hence carriage in the aft wells on most events. 

Collin

[Tony T]

On 5/7/2021 at 4:21 PM, Collin said:

With a centerline tank installed the Sparrows in the forward wells (if loaded) are inhibited from being launched. Tactically a disadvantage if you had to slow to jettison the tank to use the forward Sparrows pre-engagement....hence carriage in the aft wells on most events. 

Collin

 

I believe that is a myth. What I do know is that there was a limited supply of c/l bags and they were light when empty so crews were encouraged not to jettison them. The inhibitors were related to whether the target dot was within the Allowable Steering Error circle on the pilot's radarscope, and nothing to do with the fuel tank. 

 

1972-73 the Navy's Top Guns relied more on gas-cooled Sidewinders which around 1972-73 had the '9G SEAM expanded acquisition capability, linked to the radar for initial target cueing, and shortly afterwards VTAS. They were the main MiG-killing weapon, Sparrows being more a Fleet defence weapon. 

 

Maybe the F-4J's aft fuel was burned up first to assist with trim. IIRC most F-4J's had the No.7 fuel cell so would have been tail-heavy without Sparrows in the front wells.

 

The Tamiya 1/32 F-4J is a great modelling subject. Pity Eli's decals are oop, otherwise I'd buy another. The Zotz F-4B sheet I did manage to get is utterly fantastic.

 

Tony

Edited May 8, 2021 by Tony T
typos

[Collin]

Guess the F-4 RIO Top Gun grad I work with is wrong. 
 

I’ll have to let him know, he will get a kick out of this. 
 

Collin

[Tony T]

13 hours ago, Collin said:

Guess the F-4 RIO Top Gun grad I work with is wrong. 
 

I’ll have to let him know, he will get a kick out of this. 
 

Collin

 

Do ask him, as it's genuinely interesting, and it would be nice to see the relevant NATOPS blurb to clear this up definitively. I have heard different versions with even F-4 pilots saying different things. 

I believe there was a danger in firing the fwd Sparrows with the c/l tank installed — heck, to a novice it looks a bit crowded, even if the missiles were pushed 18ins straight down from the jet before the rocket motor started — so that at some point in time the launch sequence circuitry was changed to prioritise the rear missiles. The tank would likely have to be jettisoned before firing the fwd Sparrows, which couldn't be done safely either if there was something like 10-75% fuel remaining in it. Given A/ the need to avoid dumping the c/l bag and B/ Navy prioritisation of Sidewinder as a MiGCAP weapon, the fwd Sparrows were just extra weight as Thierry said. 

 

The ASE interlocks existed. We were talking at cross purposes. I'm also interested to learn about fuel loads and trim, albeit this is digressing into research, away from models, as the Sparrow load configuration altered c/g. 

 

Tony 

 

 

[easixpedro]

On 5/8/2021 at 4:57 PM, Collin said:

Guess the F-4 RIO Top Gun grad I work with is wrong. 
 

I’ll have to let him know, he will get a kick out of this. 
 

Collin

Would that be Karate Joe? (Only RIO I know that’s still working out there)  if so, tell him Booger says hi!

[Collin]

12 hours ago, easixpedro said:

Would that be Karate Joe? (Only RIO I know that’s still working out there)  if so, tell him Booger says hi!

Nope....I have my own grumpy one named "Mikey"...a unique person....but one heck of a brain for the work he does.  He was a RIO in the B/N/J/pre-slat S/ and post-slat S variants of the F-4....until he left the service and started working weapons stuff.  He is fun to swap stories with.  

 

Cheers

Collin

Edited May 10, 2021 by Collin

[Tony T]

14 minutes ago, Collin said:

Nope....I have my own grumpy one named "Mikey"...a unique person....but one heck of a brain for the work he does.  He was a RIO in the B/N/J/pre-slat S/ and post-slat S variants of the F-4....until I left the service and started working weapons stuff.  He is fun to swap stories with.  

 

Cheers

Collin

 

Okay, in the absence of any answers have done some more research and it seems your mate was right, apologies - there did exist some kind of interlock preventing fwd Sparrows firing with the c/l tank in place, although it could be overridden by pulling the relevant circuit breakers and doing so was not forbidden.

 

There was a similar inhibitor circuit preventing Sidewinder launch when the airbrakes were out to stop the rocket motor burning holes in the boards, but again the relevant circuit breakers could be pulled to override that.

 

You can get back to your beer now,

Cheers

Tony 

[Collin]

Eli:  Looking forward to you build, I have a 1/32 Flight Test F-4J in the works once I am back from deployment next Summer.  

 

If you need any more questions answered regarding F-4 stuff....feel free to PM me and I can reach out to my RIO buddies.  

 

Cheers

Collin