P-47 Olive Drab Question - "Little Bunny"

[John1]

So I think my next build will be an Italian-based P-47D named "Little Bunny".   This jug had a very interesting scheme of heavily weathered OD with large patches of fresh (or maybe "less weathered" OD applied.  Here is what I believe is a pretty authentic color picture of the real thing, this was provided in the instructions from the Eagle Cals decal set.  Just note that the Eagle Cals comments about this aircraft being in RAF Dark Green appear to be inaccurate.  

 

 

Here's a very nice B&W picture that also shows the contrast between the two colors.  Note the darker OD on the rudder along with even darker patches.

 

So first off - a full disclaimer.  I'm a novice when it comes to OD, I honestly do not think I've done a USAAF aircraft in OD since I was a teenager.  The first reference I stumbled upon was Dana Bell's awesome book on USAAF paint jobs.   Like all of his stuff, I highly recommend it.  For this project,  I'm trying to figure out what fresh OD looked like.  Here's a nice picture that shows heavily weathered OD and some patches of fresh OD, this might be pretty close to the way Little Bunny looked:

 

The problem is that I also stumbled upon this version of the same picture (note the darker exposure which makes the new OD much "greener":

Side note, a month or so after this picture was taken, Schnozzle was lost with her entire crew when she had a mid-air with another B-17 in the traffic patter over her base while returning from a mission.

 

So my question is - which of these two pictures do you guys think shows a correct tone for fresh OD?   I know this is opening a big can o'worms but any guidance (or even educated guesses) is much appreciated. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by John1

[LSP_Ron]

I did the same bird a few years ago but I hosed up missing the dark patch on the nose. Not sure how I missed that....

 

https://www.largescaleplanes.com/articles/article.php?aid=1755

 

 

[John1]

19 minutes ago, LSP_Ron said:

I did the same bird a few years ago but I hosed up missing the dark patch on the nose. Not sure how I missed that....

 

https://www.largescaleplanes.com/articles/article.php?aid=1755

 

 

That’s a really nice job Ron.  If I could ask, where did you get those placards for the landing gear?

[LSP_Ron]

Thanks  They were dry transfers that we offered here at LSP back in 2007..  Fabulous ones too but long out of production unfortunately.

 

Ron

[adameliclem]

Hi John,

 

Nice topic. I’ve been spending time trying to interpret photos of P-47s lately. The darker areas on the forward fuselage could be over-painted areas. If the aircraft had changed hands, the newer paint could have been applied to cover older personal markings or artwork. On the other hand, the darker areas could be the result of stains and maintenance. Matte or flat finishes are often smoothed to a sheen by frequent contact, and good luck trying to trying to take a grease mark out of a flat finish. Both actions can make paint look darker or actually darken it.
 

The B-17 photos are terrific. My interpretation of the cheek position is a little different. If you zoom in on the bulge, you can see a dark wet rag stuck to the plexiglas and suds on the windows. The edges of the bulged panel show a pattern consistent with a flat or chalky finish that’s just been soaked. It’s possible the bulge had been painted a darker shade of OD after installation at a depot, but the fact that it’s wet makes it hard to judge.

 

Ultimately, your interpretation is your own and I hope to see where you go with “Little Bunny.” Judging by all the names on the thing, I’m guessing he got around.

 

Adam

Edited March 21, 2021 by adameliclem
Missing word

[Juggernut]

Please forgive the thread hijack....  The cheek gun installation is a post-production modification and was most likely done by the United Airlines Modification Center in Cheyenne, WY.  They painted the olive drab and it is plainly obvious they used a more color-fast formula than did Lockheed-Vega.  The paint on the cheek gun is not wet as evidenced by a small drizzle under the gun mount that IS wet.  EDIT:   That's not water drizzle...it's the gun barrel shadow.

 

The first B-17 image, to my eye, looks closer to what the colors should be based on contemporaneous color photos of similarly worn OD/NG B-17G's.  The second image has too much blue (on my monitor), making the neutral grey look like azure blue and the grass in the background greener than it should otherwise be (unless the photo was taken in Kentucky....bluegrass).

 

 

I don't think that blob on the upper part of the cheek window is a rag.  The shadow it makes has definite angular properties to it with holes where sunlight is shining through.  Even a wet rag can't defy gravity.  I'm not sure what it is but I'm pretty sure it's not a rag.  To me, it looks like a mount for a small, remotely operated camera or other piece of equipment.  You'll notice the ground crew using his hand to wash the nose blister...that's is the way it should have been done.  Cloth rags have a notorious habit for picking up all kinds of particles that scratch both glass and plexiglass, compromising the optical clarity of the transparent part, which is why they aren't used to clean windows, etc.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Juggernut

[adameliclem]

16 minutes ago, Juggernut said:

You'll notice the ground crew using his hand to wash the nose blister...that's is the way it should have been done.  Cloth rags have a notorious habit for picking up all kinds of particles that scratch both glass and plexiglass, compromising the optical clarity of the transparent part, which is why they aren't used to clean windows, etc.

 

Because proper protocols were always followed in the field? Hmm. I’ll allow for the possibility that this photo was posed (you’ll remember that that happened a lot) and not an illustration for a manual, but I stand by my interpretation.

 

Adam

Edited March 21, 2021 by adameliclem

[Juggernut]

When it comes to crew visibility, clean, undamaged windows are vital, even for bomber gunners.

 

EDIT:  Just heard back from a noted B-17 authority who thinks that the "blob" that I'm seeing as an equipment mount is most likely a defect in the photographic negative.  He further states that there's also a black & white photograph of the aircraft which shows nothing there.  Oh well, so much for finding something new and exciting on a well-known photograph.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Juggernut

[John1]

Thanks very much guys.   So I think I’ll go with the “fresh OD” shown in the first B-17 pic I posted above.   The OD on the other picture appears a bit too greenish.  
 

With regard to the “weathered” OD, I’m shocked that the paint on that (at most) 2-year old B-17 faded that much.   I don’t think I’m going to go that light on Little Bunny but it looks like I’m going to have lots of opportunities for weathering this Jug.   Should be a great deal of fun.   
 

While on the subject of paint, any thoughts for a brand that accurately replicates fresh OD?  Same question if anyone offers faded OD.  This will be the first model where I won’t have my trusty ModelMaster paints so any suggestions are welcome.   

[TAG]

Hi, John

 

So WWII-vintage OD is a HUGE can of worms. I won't go into all the vagaries of Olive Drab from the pre-war years thru to the end of the USAAF, namely because all I know was written by Dana Bell, and I'm hoping he'll chime in here at some point to drop some science.

 

As for paints, I found this link on Britmodeller, this fella compiled a LOT of info that's floating out there on the web and presented it all in a pretty nice summary:

 

http://www.theworldwars.net/resources/resources.php?r=camo_usaaf

 

Here's the relevant info you want:

Looking forward to seeing your Jug!

 

Cheers,

T

[adameliclem]

3 hours ago, John1 said:

Thanks very much guys.   So I think I’ll go with the “fresh OD” shown in the first B-17 pic I posted above.   The OD on the other picture appears a bit too greenish.  
 

With regard to the “weathered” OD, I’m shocked that the paint on that (at most) 2-year old B-17 faded that much.   I don’t think I’m going to go that light on Little Bunny but it looks like I’m going to have lots of opportunities for weathering this Jug.   Should be a great deal of fun.   
 

While on the subject of paint, any thoughts for a brand that accurately replicates fresh OD?  Same question if anyone offers faded OD.  This will be the first model where I won’t have my trusty ModelMaster paints so any suggestions are welcome.   

I’m with you with regards to Model Master paints. For some aircraft their shade of OD was just right. I still miss Pactra’s OD in the rattlecan.

 

It wasn’t rare for overall OD aircraft to have that sun blasted look but it wasn’t exactly common, either. A lot of the most bleached aircraft were planes that simply lasted long past their expected lives, not to mention the lives of their crews. They lived long enough to go grey.

 

Adam

[Gigant]

On 3/20/2021 at 4:17 PM, John1 said:

So I think my next build will be an Italian-based P-47D named "Little Bunny".   This jug had a very interesting scheme of heavily weathered OD with large patches of fresh (or maybe "less weathered" OD applied.  Here is what I believe is a pretty authentic color picture of the real thing, this was provided in the instructions from the Eagle Cals decal set.  Just note that the Eagle Cals comments about this aircraft being in RAF Dark Green appear to be inaccurate.  

 

 

Here's a very nice B&W picture that also shows the contrast between the two colors.  Note the darker OD on the rudder along with even darker patches.

 

So first off - a full disclaimer.  I'm a novice when it comes to OD, I honestly do not think I've done a USAAF aircraft in OD since I was a teenager.  The first reference I stumbled upon was Dana Bell's awesome book on USAAF paint jobs.   Like all of his stuff, I highly recommend it.  For this project,  I'm trying to figure out what fresh OD looked like.  Here's a nice picture that shows heavily weathered OD and some patches of fresh OD, this might be pretty close to the way Little Bunny looked:

 

The problem is that I also stumbled upon this version of the same picture (note the darker exposure which makes the new OD much "greener":

Side note, a month or so after this picture was taken, Schnozzle was lost with her entire crew when she had a mid-air with another B-17 in the traffic patter over her base while returning from a mission.

 

So my question is - which of these two pictures do you guys think shows a correct tone for fresh OD?   I know this is opening a big can o'worms but any guidance (or even educated guesses) is much appreciated. 

Honestly, it looks to me like they painted the patch job with chocolate brown.

[John1]

On 3/22/2021 at 6:11 PM, adameliclem said:

I’m with you with regards to Model Master paints. For some aircraft their shade of OD was just right. I still miss Pactra’s OD in the rattlecan.

 

It wasn’t rare for overall OD aircraft to have that sun blasted look but it wasn’t exactly common, either. A lot of the most bleached aircraft were planes that simply lasted long past their expected lives, not to mention the lives of their crews. They lived long enough to go grey.

 

Adam

Was able to score a bottle of MM OD from Amazon.   I guess this will be my last rodeo with those paints.  I don't plan on having Little Bunny as faded as the B-17's above but she'll definitely be faded out.   Should be great deal of fun!   That's a great reference you posted, by the way.   

[John1]

On 3/22/2021 at 6:37 PM, Gigant said:

Honestly, it looks to me like they painted the patch job with chocolate brown.

Out of the can OD wasn't that far away from Chocolate Brown.  Who knows, you could be correct but I'm writing off that more brownish tone to issues with the color on the picture.  Note how subdued the yellow stripes are.  

Edited May 30, 2021 by John1

[bdthoresen]

On 3/21/2021 at 6:05 PM, adameliclem said:

Because proper protocols were always followed in the field? Hmm. I’ll allow for the possibility that this photo was posed (you’ll remember that that happened a lot) and not an illustration for a manual, but I stand by my interpretation.

 

Adam

While I find your theory of wetness intriguing, if you look just aft of the cheek fairing, there are spray gun marks following the rivet lines when the mod was installed. They would have had to drill some rivets aft of the position to install it, and you can clearly see they painted over the new bare rivets in a hurried fashion to cover them up. Those are clearly spray gun marks. I have been an aircraft/warbird mechanic, restorer, and painter for the last 27 years, And I have left a few spray gun marks myself, albeit with a color a little closer to the original!!!!!

 

Awesome photos.....Absolutely amazing!

 

THOR     

Edited March 28, 2021 by bdthoresen