P-47 Cockpit

[TAG]

7 minutes ago, John1 said:

Thank you very much!!  More of a trivia question, any idea why the inner gear doors all had that NMF panel?  

 

Not sure what exactly is under that panel but there's definitely something there, including a bell crank, so I'm assuming it's an access hatch of sorts. Might double as a rub plate for the tire, too? Here's the page from the -4 Parts Manual:

 

7 minutes ago, John1 said:

 

 

Regarding Brazilian Jugs, see my other post below.   One potential subject I was interested in was a 57th FG bird that originally was flown by a Brazilian unit prior to being passed to the 57th.   Per various sources on the net, many / all of the Brazilian Jugs were painted RAF dark green.   Does this seem correct?

 

Regards,

 

John 

 

I posted in the other thread, but I can definitely say all Brazilian Jugs came factory-painted in OD 41 over Neutral Gray 43, as per Brazilian Air Force specifications. Eventually, as planes were lost they were replaced by newer variants in NMF, but I've never seen any indication that the BAF had access to or ever used RAF paint stocks at any point during the war.

[MikeMaben]

14 hours ago, John1 said:

Thanks Mike.  Not to go OT but I've never used MRP before.  Does it brush and spray well?  What do you use for thinner?   I'm a Model Master guy who is starting to deplete his stash of those paints.  

Hi John, MRP has both acrylic lacquer for airbrushing only and an acrylic for hand brushing.

The lacquer based needs no thinning and sprays beautifully. Wear a mask or turn on a fan

cuz it wreaks. Have fun.

[Johnny Cloud]

Could anyone point to a source for Dull Dark Green being the cockpit color on most Thunderbolts?

I'm asking because last year I did some research for a modeling project and couldn't not find any document indicating DDG as the cockpit color.

 

Here's roughly what I found:

The only "stock" P-47D I know of with a DDG cockpit is 44-32691, shown on a picture this thread.

On several parts it look to me like the DDG was sprayed over a lighter green, but let's accept DDG as the original color for the sake of argument.

 

The photos I've seen of "Dottie Mae" look very different from it, even if one takes into account the great shifts cockpit greens are capable of on pictures.

 

P-47D 42-22687 was recovered untouched in New Guinea by Robert Greinert and also shows a cockpit green that looks nothing like DDG (both it and Dottie Mae look to be the same).

 

Aircorps Aviation has produced the most accurate restorations to date, they base their work on period documents as well as the aircraft themselves.

They are currently restoring a P-47D-23 (42-27609) and again DDG is not the color they are going with.

This is not an average restoration but one based on the colors found in the aircraft itself:

https://www.aircorpsaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/P-47_AugSept-2019.pdf

 

Here are the finish spec. from three different P-47 erection and maintenance manuals (dated respectively 8/10/44, 1/10/43 and 12/15/47):

 

All indicate a tinted zinc chromate, basically a pre ANA cockpit green.

Interestingly Medium Green (ANA 612) is the color called for P-47 cockpits on some factory drawings according to Aircorps Aviation, its FS equivalent is 34092 which is also the FS number some associate with DDG, there must be an error somewhere.

 

I'm not sure what to make of all this but at the very least it seems DDG was not the cockpit color on all P-47D's and I think probably not on most of them.

Comments?

 

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Johnny Cloud
Fixing image links

[Dana Bell]

Hi Johnny,

 

Tech orders and specifications were often more like guidelines than actual rules (not unlike the pirate code).  The actual colors used would be negotiated between the AAF factory representative and the manufacturer, usually with permission of Wright Field.  The P-47 was particularly screwed up in the tech orders, since the May 1943 formula and August 1944 formulas didn't give the ratio of black to zinc chromate.  With the shortage of aluminum powder needed to produce the original Yellow Green cockpit color, several companies instead used Dull Dark Green lacquer in their fighters - Republic appears to be one of them.

 

There were variations in Dull Dark Green lacquers, and it's possible other lacquers were substituted.  Douglas, for example, had been using duPont Pine Green since before the war - it was this color that led the US military to switch to darker greens.  What we see in photos and surviving aircraft may not be an exact match for DDG, but it's certainly nothing like aluminized zinc chromate, Yellow Green, or Interior Green.

 

The AFM and NASM P-47s both have DDG, as does 42-22687.  The photos of Dottie Mae seem to show the same color.  Curtiss seems to have used Interior Green when they finally got P-47Gs into production.

 

The military began dropping the use of DDG in mid-1943, but several manufacturers seemed to have stocked up or just preferred using lacquers to tinted primers.  One or both of Republic's plants may have switched to Interior Green, but I've no proof either way.

 

The Medium Green callout originated in November 1944 when the AAF and the Navy began switching to that color as an option for cockpits and anti-glare panels.  I wonder if it was used in late-production P-47Ns.

 

My plans to plow into the P-47's archival correspondence have been set aside for other things - I hope one day to find the memos discussing Thunderbolt painting.  Until then, I've no written documentation - just observations.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

[Johnny Cloud]

Hi Dana, thank you very much for your comments.

I am the proud owner of several of your books and you can be sure that I'll be first in line should you decide to produce a volume on the P-47.

Still, based on different photos (and the variations they show) of known DDG samples such as seat of the NASM P-51D (44-74939),  I continue to not see DDG in Dottie Mae and 42-22687 but something closer to Medium Green.

I'll have to take another look in the context of your response.

The subject of the P-47 cockpit color is not as clear cut as I had hoped it would be.

 

[JayW]

For advise on what to put on this aircraft and what not (like the proper gunsight for instance), it would be good to commit now to at least the model number (e.g. a P-47D-25 or -30 or -35, etc).  Is it a good assumption this is a bubbletop?  That way drawings can be used to determine the configuration - drawings available through Aircorps Library.  I did a 1/18 P-47-30RA a while back, and believe me there was a whole lot of config change by the time that model started to get churned out of factories.  The engineering drawings sort all that out.  They do not however take into account any field mods done.  For instance I am pretty sure the K-14 gyro computing gunsight was fitted to some earlier models in the field.  

 

For a D-28RA, the Dottie Mae restoration is an excellent resource, although it has the wrong propeller and ignition system (the original had the Curtiss Electric prop and ignition system; the resto has a Hamilton Standard). 

Edited March 17, 2021 by JayW

[Juggernut]

It is dull dark green... The below photographic examples (Kinzey, pp. 40, 41) are reportedly from an unrestored P-47D-30 RA (Evansville production) 44-232691 put into storage immediately after the war and clearly show DDG throughout the cockpit.  You'll have to forgive my crappy scans. The only P-47's that seem to have had interior green cockpits were the P-47G's built by Curtiss.  None of these ever saw combat and were kept in the United States due to quality control problems (KInzey p. 59).

 

As for the paint mixture listed in the E&R manual (document page 364 of the -2, dated 5, OCTOBER 1945 and you'll note the revision bar in the R/H margin indicating that this entire paragraph was revised...question is, what did it say prior to October 5, 1945?).

 

 

I'll be willing to bet that if you mix one part of untinted zinc (model paint of your choice), and one part black (of the same model choice) you will indeed wind up with a shade of green akin to "interior green".  Having said that, what is in the E&R manual may or may not be inline with what was done at the factory (as far as paint is concerned).  As Dana pointed out above, what the factories did or did not do was largely determined on their "relationship" with the Government (in this case USAAC). The main intent of an E&R manual (used in the service of the aircraft, not at the factory) is to keep the aircraft airworthy. In my humble opinion, the "aesthetics" of paint matching by the ground crew, especially inside the cockpit where the ONLY consideration was to prevent glare, was so unimportant as to be ignored after (and quite possibly before) the aircraft left the factory. 

 

Reference:  Kinzey, Bert.(1998). P-47 Thunderbolt in Detail & Scale (D&S Vol. 54). Squadron/Signal Publications, Carrollton, TX.  pp. 40, 41, 59

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Juggernut
qualified a statement about what was in the E&R vs. what factory's did..

[Juggernut]

15 minutes ago, JayW said:

...had the Curtiss Electric prop and ignition system....

 

Small pedantic correction if I may....  The P-47D's (-25 and later) all had R-2800-59, B-series engines with the General Electric ignition system, commonly referred to as the "turtleback" ignition system or magnetos.

[Johnny Cloud]

Juggernut, I've had the Kinzey book for a while and the photos you kindly posted show what I was referring to earlier; it looks like the DDG was sprayed over a lighter green, not in a way that makes sense for a factory paint job.

44-32691 had a long career before going to the NASM, it looks like the cockpit was repainted somewhere along the way over something that's not DDG.

I think it's worth paying attention to considering this plane is often used as an example for stock DDG in a P-47 cockpit.

Stock from the late 50's is not necessarily the same as WWII stock.

 

 

[JayW]

1 hour ago, Juggernut said:

Small pedantic correction if I may....  The P-47D's (-25 and later) all had R-2800-59, B-series engines with the General Electric ignition system, commonly referred to as the "turtleback" ignition system or magnetos.

Correctisimo!  I believe restorations never get this.  Otherwise the FHC would have put it on Dottie Mae since accuracy is their motto.  I'd like to know why....    And that is why you see magneto's and round distributors on so many models of bubbletops.  

 

[D.B. Andrus]

Juggernut

 

Respectfully, 1 part Zinc Chromate + 1 Part Black would yield something much darker than Interior Green. The original formula for Tinted Zinc Chromate is 1 gal ZC + 1/10 gal  Black enamel + 4 oz aluminum paste. Later the aluminum paste was deleted and the result named Interior Green. Later still, a pre-mixed Interior Green came into general use. As for DDG, that remains, to me at least, a wriggling can of worms.

 

Cheers,

Damian

[Derek B]

11 hours ago, Dana Bell said:

Hi Johnny,

 

Tech orders and specifications were often more like guidelines than actual rules (not unlike the pirate code).  The actual colors used would be negotiated between the AAF factory representative and the manufacturer, usually with permission of Wright Field.  The P-47 was particularly screwed up in the tech orders, since the May 1943 formula and August 1944 formulas didn't give the ratio of black to zinc chromate.  With the shortage of aluminum powder needed to produce the original Yellow Green cockpit color, several companies instead used Dull Dark Green lacquer in their fighters - Republic appears to be one of them.

 

There were variations in Dull Dark Green lacquers, and it's possible other lacquers were substituted.  Douglas, for example, had been using duPont Pine Green since before the war - it was this color that led the US military to switch to darker greens.  What we see in photos and surviving aircraft may not be an exact match for DDG, but it's certainly nothing like aluminized zinc chromate, Yellow Green, or Interior Green.

 

The AFM and NASM P-47s both have DDG, as does 42-22687.  The photos of Dottie Mae seem to show the same color.  Curtiss seems to have used Interior Green when they finally got P-47Gs into production.

 

The military began dropping the use of DDG in mid-1943, but several manufacturers seemed to have stocked up or just preferred using lacquers to tinted primers.  One or both of Republic's plants may have switched to Interior Green, but I've no proof either way.

 

The Medium Green callout originated in November 1944 when the AAF and the Navy began switching to that color as an option for cockpits and anti-glare panels.  I wonder if it was used in late-production P-47Ns.

 

My plans to plow into the P-47's archival correspondence have been set aside for other things - I hope one day to find the memos discussing Thunderbolt painting.  Until then, I've no written documentation - just observations.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

 

Indeed Dana - I understand that the Northrop P-61 (and probably other aircraft types) had similar issues.

 

Many thanks

 

Derek

[Derek B]

7 hours ago, D.B. Andrus said:

Juggernut

 

Respectfully, 1 part Zinc Chromate + 1 Part Black would yield something much darker than Interior Green. The original formula for Tinted Zinc Chromate is 1 gal ZC + 1/10 gal  Black enamel + 4 oz aluminum paste. Later the aluminum paste was deleted and the result named Interior Green. Later still, a pre-mixed Interior Green came into general use. As for DDG, that remains, to me at least, a wriggling can of worms.

 

Cheers,

Damian

 

I agree Damian, I think that the proportions quoted by Dale would be incorrect (which may have simply been an error in printing). The P-61 M & E manuals quote a similar proportional paint mix ratio to those you quote, which produces a more darker bronze-green type colour than the FS 34092/ANA 612 colour (I have experimented with this ratio and the colour does look as described).

 

Derek

[TAG]

Just found this pic in my files, I believe this was posted a while back on the ARC forums, I lose track of these things... Anyway, hope it adds to the discussion, gents.

 

[D.B. Andrus]

5 hours ago, Derek B said:

 

I agree Damian, I think that the proportions quoted by Dale would be incorrect (which may have simply been an error in printing). The P-61 M & E manuals quote a similar proportional paint mix ratio to those you quote, which produces a more darker bronze-green type colour than the FS 34092/ANA 612 colour (I have experimented with this ratio and the colour does look as described).

 

Derek

Hi Derek

 

Could you post the ratios from the P-61 E & E manual? I'm curious how Northrop approached this color.

 

Cheers,

Damian