1/32 Tam Spit IXc SK+N "Ducky": Question for the Spitfire Experts

[Thunderbolt]

Hello all, 

 

My best friend is 33 and has been a particular enthusiast of the Spitfire IX most of his life. I chose to build for him, as a gift, the IXc SK + N "Ducky" flown by Donald Moffat-Wilson as I had stumbled upon the Montex masks for this a/c and was interested in painting my own markings. He requested the model be built in flight with a pilot. 

 

A few photos exist of this a/c, included below. A few of the details are unclear to me and I would be grateful for clarification on them from members of this group who know more about WW2 Spitfires than I do.

 

This first photo shows the pilot standing underneath the propeller of his a/c. The spinner's tip and base are painted an unknown color that I have presumed would be red. The fore rim of the supercharger scoop in front of the drop tank appears to be painted this same color as well. Does anyone know if a particular unit adopted this scheme with red maybe or another color?

 

Second, the guns do not have the bump lateral to them in the photo so I deleted those on my kit. I otherwise used the "standard" barrels. Is this correct?

 

 

 

This second photo show's the pilot in the cockpit of his A/C. The SK appears painted over former markings, though the background color doesn't seem to correspond to any known letters. The shade underneath the roundel is much darker than the RAF dark green seen to the left of the photo, yet, it is not in the position I would expect for a black portion of an invasion stripe. Does anyone have insight on what color the very dark portion underneath the roundel is and what the story may have been behind it?

 

Many thanks for your input. 

TB

 

 

 

 

`

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by thunderbolt1988

[Thunderbolt]

I used the pilot supplied in the kit overlaying RB Productions Sutton harness, painting with Tamiya acrylics as directed in the instructions. Im not much of a figure painter but was happy with the result. 

 

The cockpit came together nicely. I used the barracuda interior bits below + placards. Airscale stencils were placed on each IP dial per references and copiously toned down with an airbrushing of Tamiya smoke. RAF cockpit green is my own mix. 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is the project at the initial phase of completion with the cockpit and airframe completed. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by thunderbolt1988

[dennismcc]

5 hours ago, thunderbolt1988 said:

Second, the guns do not have the bump lateral to them in the photo so I deleted those on my kit. I otherwise used the "standard" barrels. Is this correct?

`

 

Looking at my notes I found this

The original armament consisted of one 20mm Hispano cannon in the inner position of each wing, and two .303cal machine guns in the
machine gun bays. The unused outboard cannon stub was closed off with a rounded wooden plug.

Originally the RAF wanted a 4 cannon armament but this was found to be too heavy for the Spitfire hence the deletion of the other cannon.

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

[Thunderbolt]

1 hour ago, dennismcc said:

Looking at my notes I found this

The original armament consisted of one 20mm Hispano cannon in the inner position of each wing, and two .303cal machine guns in the
machine gun bays. The unused outboard cannon stub was closed off with a rounded wooden plug.

Originally the RAF wanted a 4 cannon armament but this was found to be too heavy for the Spitfire hence the deletion of the other cannon.

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

Thank you Dennis. In the photo, even the wooden plug is missing, which is why I'm a bit mystified. Looks like a Mk. V wing. 

[Cees Broere]

That looks very nice already. But please refrain from calling people with a lot of knowledge on the Spitfire: Experten. Same as painting RAF camo in RLM colours.

Call them Boffins (mind the smiley)

[dennismcc]

13 hours ago, thunderbolt1988 said:

Thank you Dennis. In the photo, even the wooden plug is missing, which is why I'm a bit mystified. Looks like a Mk. V wing. 

The early Mk.IX's were conversions of Mk.V's.

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

[MikeMaben]

Hi TB, nice work so far. I cleared your first photo up a little to see some details better.

 

The paint on and around the spinner doesn't look like a decorative squadron marking so

I'd say it's some kind of sealant. The screen in front of the intake was an ice/snow block,

some had one some didn't. They were a seasonal field add-on and I think most were black.

The wooden plugs in the wings would likely have been painted over.

This a/c did have lower fuselage invasion stripes at one point so that dark paint is also

likely a dark green overpaint (rear canopy frame as well).

The SK code looks white and the overpainted code was very likely grey.

HTH , have fun.

 

[Sepp]

SK-N, s/n MK471 was indeed a Castle Bromwich-built mkV/IX, as an LF.IX

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Sepp

[Thunderbolt]

10 hours ago, Cees Broere said:

That looks very nice already. But please refrain from calling people with a lot of knowledge on the Spitfire: Experten. Same as painting RAF camo in RLM colours.

Call them Boffins (mind the smiley)

Haha, will do! I will fix the title shortly. No offense intended

 

8 hours ago, dennismcc said:

The early Mk.IX's were conversions of Mk.V's.

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

that I knew, but the protruding cannon fairing doesn’t look like that early MkV cannon fairing so they must have put later fairings on earlier wings? 
 

7 hours ago, MikeMaben said:

Hi TB, nice work so far. I cleared your first photo up a little to see some details better.

 

The paint on and around the spinner doesn't look like a decorative squadron marking so

I'd say it's some kind of sealant. The screen in front of the intake was an ice/snow block,

some had one some didn't. They were a seasonal field add-on and I think most were black.

The wooden plugs in the wings would likely have been painted over.

This a/c did have lower fuselage invasion stripes at one point so that dark paint is also

likely a dark green overpaint (rear canopy frame as well).

The SK code looks white and the overpainted code was very likely grey.

HTH , have fun.

 

Mike, 

Thank you for your great points all around! The tone of the prop sealant, if it is sealant, appears to have a hue that matches the tape over the guns and I’m thinking it could be a reddish color. 
 

Will render the ice/snow block in black. 

 

Regarding the invasion stripes, was there a point during which they would have been painted over? I would have thought the stripes would have been beneficial to keep until the very end of the war. Was the goal to completely cover them such that the darker green overpaint would extend all the way around the bottom where the medium sea grey was originally applied? Or was some version of MSG applied by hand to the underside as well to cover the stripes? 
 

feeling much closer already to having a painting plan thanks to you guys. 
Thanks a lot 

TB
 

 

[MikeMaben]

On 2/12/2021 at 10:20 AM, thunderbolt1988 said:

Regarding the invasion stripes, was there a point during which they would have been painted over? I would have thought the stripes would have been beneficial to keep until the very end of the war. Was the goal to completely cover them such that the darker green overpaint would extend all the way around the bottom where the medium sea grey was originally applied? Or was some version of MSG applied by hand to the underside as well to cover the stripes?

 

Ordered removed from upper surfaces a month after D-Day,

completely removed by late December 1944.  Don't know

about the method was but since some were applied by spray

and some were applied by hand (most), one might assume the

goal was to return them to their original scheme.  There are

numerous examples of using whatever was available at the time

(blue Mustangs ).

I think you could legally whip out your artistic license 

 

 

Just fill in the blanks.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2021 by MikeMaben

[thammond65]

On 2/11/2021 at 2:30 PM, thunderbolt1988 said:

Hello all, 

 

My best friend is 33 and has been a particular enthusiast of the Spitfire IX most of his life. I chose to build for him, as a gift, the IXc SK + N "Ducky" flown by Donald Moffat-Wilson as I had stumbled upon the Montex masks for this a/c and was interested in painting my own markings. He requested the model be built in flight with a pilot. 

 

A few photos exist of this a/c, included below. A few of the details are unclear to me and I would be grateful for clarification on them from members of this group who know more about WW2 Spitfires than I do.

 

This first photo shows the pilot standing underneath the propeller of his a/c. The spinner's tip and base are painted an unknown color that I have presumed would be red. The fore rim of the supercharger scoop in front of the drop tank appears to be painted this same color as well. Does anyone know if a particular unit adopted this scheme with red maybe or another color?

 

Second, the guns do not have the bump lateral to them in the photo so I deleted those on my kit. I otherwise used the "standard" barrels. Is this correct?

 

 

 

This second photo show's the pilot in the cockpit of his A/C. The SK appears painted over former markings, though the background color doesn't seem to correspond to any known letters. The shade underneath the roundel is much darker than the RAF dark green seen to the left of the photo, yet, it is not in the position I would expect for a black portion of an invasion stripe. Does anyone have insight on what color the very dark portion underneath the roundel is and what the story may have been behind it?

 

Many thanks for your input. 

TB

 

 

 

 

`

 

I would be careful interpreting that picture of the cockpit that appears to show a darker green. The bright light line suggests some sort of light leakage either in the camera or when being developed or printed. Theres a clear difference in tone either side of the white line on both the fuselage and canopy.  The lower shot with the cockpit door shut shows no difference between the dark green areas either on the fuselage or the cockpit. I suspect there's exposure problems rather than real differences.

[fastterry]

Is the serial number known for sure on this aircraft as I think it is one of the 100 Mk V airframes converted to Mk IX standard and features a 'B' wing ie 2 x 20mm Hispano and 4 x .303 machine guns. The initial batch of Mk IX's were in the serial range BR & BS and could have either B or C wings according to Spitfire the History by Shacklady. To me it looks like a well used airframe and, if one of the original conversions, would be at least two years old by the time the photo was taken. Interesting it has the late war 'torpedo' drop tank. I also think the codes would still be in Sky as per official directives. Just my two bobs worth.

TRF

 

I'm not a Spitfire expert nor a boffin but a Mk IX with a B wing really got me interested. MK471 was issued to 39 MU 1-3-44, issued to 165 sqn 30-3-44 and Failed To Return 12-6-44. I think aircraft in the photo is a replacement with the same code letters. One other small thing, MK471 would have had an Aero Vee carb intake (the long one) as per the Montex profile, the aircraft in the photo has the original short one which fits it being an early airframe.

Edited February 15, 2021 by fastterry
added info

[Chek]

2 hours ago, fastterry said:

Is the serial number known for sure on this aircraft as I think it is one of the 100 Mk V airframes converted to Mk IX standard and features a 'B' wing ie 2 x 20mm Hispano and 4 x .303 machine guns. The initial batch of Mk IX's were in the serial range BR & BS and could have either B or C wings according to Spitfire the History by Shacklady. To me it looks like a well used airframe and, if one of the original conversions, would be at least two years old by the time the photo was taken. Interesting it has the late war 'torpedo' drop tank. I also think the codes would still be in Sky as per official directives. Just my two bobs worth.

TRF

 

I'm not a Spitfire expert nor a boffin but a Mk IX with a B wing really got me interested. MK471 was issued to 39 MU 1-3-44, issued to 165 sqn 30-3-44 and Failed To Return 12-6-44. I think aircraft in the photo is a replacement with the same code letters. One other small thing, MK471 would have had an Aero Vee carb intake (the long one) as per the Montex profile, the aircraft in the photo has the original short one which fits it being an early airframe.

 

NO! In the case of early Mark IXs, the B designation referred to the lo-altitude optimised (Merlin 66) engines, NOT the wing armament which would have been a C wing in all cases.

[fastterry]

I've dug up even more info (it's 37C outside here so good for doing research). P/O Donald Moffat-Wilson was flying MK471 on a Rhubarb over France on the 12th June 44 when the squadron spotted a large number of German troops. The sqn attacked but according to eyewitnesses his plane hit a high tension cable and crashed in a field near the town of Lamballe and the pilot was killed. He was just 21 years old.

Further to my hypothesis that the plane in the photo is not MK471 is in the fact that 165 sqn had six Mk V conversions on strength in the 43-44 time period namely BR601, BS127, BS227 (Mk IXC), BS242, BS282 & BS439. I now believe the plane in the photo is one of these and was used with the SK-N codes before MK471. So you can either build MK471 as a lateish Mk IXC as per the Montex  masks or pick a serial number from above and build it as a Mk IXB. Hopefully that's all from me.

TRF 

[fastterry]

According to Shacklady some of the original Mk IX's were built from Mk V's with B wings. I'm using accepted modern practice of identifying the different wing types. Also as things developed the nomenclature included LF F and HF to differentiate between the different engine specs fitted to the various marks.

TRF