Tamiya F-4B Phantom Conversion (Finished! 25 Sep)

[easixpedro]

My order from Spruebrothers showed up today, so this build might get some oomph. 

 

Before anyone says I got the wrong seats, I'll explain when I start in on the cockpit. 

 

My last build I used rhe kit intakes and what a PITA. While seamless intakes are possible,  I dont want to spend that much time on them when I'm already converting so much.

More soon

-Peter

[jimbo59]

I’m guessing you wanted MK5 seats for an early B

[easixpedro]

Been a full two months since I updated this?!  Strange things happened when I went to work on those intakes.  I cleaned them as you should with all resin, but they just would not take paint!  Seriously, I tried Tamiya white primer, which sort of bubbled up like rain on a freshly waxed car. I tried the latex paint pour method and that worked somewhat, but my paint color was off.  I set everything aside out of frustration and there it sat till this weekend.

 

On Saturday, I really didn't feel like working on the Prowler, so poured a bunch of vinegar in a cup and let the intakes soak overnight. The latex paint slid out in a gigantic sleeve and even better, it took the Tamiya primer with it!  Added benefit is that it cleaned whatever mold release was contaminating them. On Sunday I used some white enamel appliance repair paint (it was handy) and poured it in. They look good now. Will update with some photos hopefully tonight. Once the intakes are done, I can start working on the cockpit and get the fuselage buttoned up and move on.  More soon!

-Peter

[stusbke]

On 2/19/2021 at 2:34 AM, easixpedro said:

My order from Spruebrothers showed up today, so this build might get some oomph. 

 

Before anyone says I got the wrong seats, I'll explain when I start in on the cockpit. 

 

My last build I used rhe kit intakes and what a PITA. While seamless intakes are possible,  I dont want to spend that much time on them when I'm already converting so much.

More soon

-Peter

did the RF4B use the same seats or where these the later ones like in the J?

 

Cheers 

Frederick Jacobs

[easixpedro]

1 minute ago, stusbke said:

did the RF4B use the same seats or where these the later ones like in the J?

 

Cheers 

Frederick Jacobs

Early ejection seats are a hot mess, to put it mildly. The seats as included in the kit started being incorporated about the time the J hit the fleet. But not all had them (don't quote me here)--it was when the a/c went into depot level maintenance that they were updated. By 70 or so the majority of the fleet had the newer seats, including any B variant.  Best bet is to find a photo of the bird your building and know the timeframe. Anything during Rolling Thunder would have the earlier seats. Linebacker or later would have the seats from the kit. As for AF Phantoms, I honestly haven't a clue, but suspect it's along the same timelines.

 

When I ordered these seats, Spruebrothers was out of the early F-4B seats so I grabbed some F-8 seats. They're NOT the same--but close enough that a little trimming and closed canopies with aircrew in them that you won't be able to tell...  When I get around to the cockpit section, I'll hopefully add some info to help folks sort it all out.  The cockpit changes are as bad as the seats--mostly driven by the crazy changes required by adding EW equipment to deal with the SAMs and AAA over North Vietnam. 

-Peter

[stusbke]

Cheers 

 

thanks for the heads up and be assured I'm glued to this one..

 

Frederick Jacobs

[easixpedro]

Alright lads, pics!

 

Here's where we're at.  Not much to say about the resin intakes. Not the best casting, not the worst. They work... You can see the super glossy white (again, appliance white). Might knock it back w/ a wash so it's not SO bright white.

 

 

Here's the comparison. If you haven't built a Tamiya Phantom, the intakes are not good (being kind). You can see the half intake that I haven't cut out yet.  Imagine trying to get that seam covered, while buried in the fuselage.  There's limits to even what I'm willing to do!

 

So now on to the cockpit. But first some links--I won't show you every difference, especially as I'm not super concerned as a lot of this will get buried w/ closed canopies and a RIO in the back cockpit. But education is power and this will give you the resources to figure out how to do your own!

 

http://aviation.watergeek.eu/f4b-panel.html  Love this site.  Dude is using a cockpit to build out a flight simulator (?!)  But he's got diagrams from the NATOPS manuals. It's brilliant, as it shows you the various airframes changes. I'll be doing the early F-4B Cockpit with the shoehorn mods. Or at least some of them.

 

Couple the above site with this: https://phantomphacts.blogspot.com/search/label/EW and you'll get an understanding of how all the various lumps and bumps of antennas were added to the airframe, also when.  I'll buy beer for whoever can spot that I don't have the right APR-25 antennas for the right sensor panel! Just kidding, (not really...). But gives you and idea that maybe you shouldn't have the RWR scope if you haven't added the antenna fairings.  Again, I'm not going whole hog here as 90% of it wont be visible. Especially the KY-28 box--it's the crypto panel on the lower right side, beneath all the quilting (and thanks to John Walker it was pretty worthless, but I digress!)

 

Now the site that has really allowed me to visualize it is this: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:F-4N_cockpit_simulator_at_Pacific_Coast_Air_Museum

I'm more of a visual guy, so seeing it on paper is one thing, but seeing the actual object allows me to start thinking how to build it.  While this is an F-4N, it'll do. All Ns were Bs at some point, so the panels are same, but the boxes on the panels change over time--especially compared to the early Bs. 

 

Several things struck me as I was inspecting those pics. Check out the left side of the cockpit. It's essentially open to the fuselage--there's no actual consoles and what's there is just jutting out haphazardly. The F-4B came out at essentially the same time as the A-6A and both resulted in the creation of Naval Flight Officers--a qualified aviator specialized as a Radar Intercept Officer, or as a Bombardier/Navigator. It's like the cockpit was thrown together w/o any real thought to what the guy-in-back was actually going to do!  Not surprising really--heck, the Navy didn't even come up with wings for them until 1968, 3 years into Vietnam (they had been wearing observer wings)! Anyway, it just struck me at how cobbled together the back cockpit looks. No HOTAS here... Even makes the Nav and Bombardier station on a Fortress or Liberator seem organized.  Also looks really cramped. The right side is covered with quilting that in reality is covering up the inflight refueling probe, so no space there. On the B, both the radar console and the joystick had handles that allowed the RIO to stow them for takeoff and landing. Take a gander at the pics--there's really no place for the RIOs legs--I can't imagine having to eject with all that stuff not stowed. Early ejection seats were notorious for maiming as many people as they saved--with a cockpit like this, I'm beginning to understand why!

 

So here's the cockpit as I made my first couple of cuts. You can see the area of the kit cockpit I highlighted to remove. 

 

And here it is after about 30 seconds worth of cutting (note the sloppy cuts--it'll all be hidden, or at least filled in with styrene). 

 

So that's where I'm at. Not much really, but should give folks who want to build a B something to go off of.  

 

Thanks for following along, more once I have something built up and worth sharing!

-Peter

[MDuv]

Hi Peter,

When it comes to F-4, VF-111's B are my go to.
Taking notes for later
Thanks for sharing your impressive conversion and knowledge.


Cheers.

Mathieu

[Anthony in NZ]

Hey Peter, this is my kinda conversion!  Loving what you are doing here and following with interest with the cockpit as that probably wont be far off for me either

 

Thanks for taking the time, very inspiring for me!

 

Cheers Anthony

[easixpedro]

1 hour ago, MDuv said:

Hi Peter,

When it comes to F-4, VF-111's B are my go to.
Taking notes for later
Thanks for sharing your impressive conversion and knowledge.


Cheers.

Mathieu

Sure thing! Researching a topic is half the fun of a build for me, so sharing some of what I’ve found seems natural. I also like it when I run across someone who has a hobby that makes mine seem not too bad—can you imagine telling your significant other that you bought an entire  cockpit section for a simulator? “Honey, we’re gonna need an extension...”

 

I love VF-111 markings too, but they seem more natural on the Crusaders to me. For some reason, I’m just drawn to the Aardvarks and that bright orange. VF-142 is a close second with all their yellow. I just can’t fathom flying an orange or yellow airplane in the most heavily defended skies the world has ever seen!

6 minutes ago, Anthony in NZ said:

Hey Peter, this is my kinda conversion!  Loving what you are doing here and following with interest with the cockpit as that probably wont be far off for me either

 

Thanks for taking the time, very inspiring for me!

 

Cheers Anthony

Sure thing...we’re all in this together. Wish I had more definitive stuff on the Brit variants, but it’s hard enough to track down the USN stuff. And watching you go got me interested in mine again...that and drilling out circuit breakers for the Prowler was a bit monotonous!

[Derek B]

Nice work - enjoying this Peter! 

 

Derek

[blackbetty]

me too!

[easixpedro]

So a bit of learning going on here...

 

First up. I gave bum gouge about cutting out the entire side console. Only need to cut out the forward half. Here's where I left it last night.

 

Looks nice and roomy, which immediately sent my suspicious side into overdrive. 

 

Enter this gem of a pic i discovered on Flickr. Take a critical look at the relative locations of everything.  For me that was the canopy handle and the small trapezoid window. (Of note, this is a later lot B, with the airframe change for dual controls...I'm guessing a VF-121 RAG bird)

 

Here's the kit from a similar angle...the IP is about 5mm to far forward

 

So a few quick cuts and I'm happy with how cramped the RIOs cockpit is looking. 

And the other side. Lower IP is flush now...the L shaped bend in the upper portion happens above. 

 

Up next, we'll start adding the black boxes and such. Will start making the radar panel and the radar control panel. They're supposed to retract...but that photo i posted above, I'm not sure it could with that hood on it. Might leave mine in the open position just because...

 

More soon as I figure it all out!

Peter 

[thierry laurent]

Excellent project! The F-4B is also my favorite mark. 

 

Some inputs :

 

It's too late for you but there's no need to cut the bump in front of the MLG wells. You can simply sand them

 thanks to the plastic thickness!

 

Airbrakes were not simply flat. They also had different structural details and holes. So, 'flattening' the kit part does not give a correct B airbrake. This is not that visible but I guess you prefer knowing it.

 

There were indeed various RIO pit port side configurations as we had essentially there ranks of boxes. It is quite difficult finding good information about that evolution. Some are better known than others such as the Shoehorn upgrade. Note I think the modellers able to distinguish such subtleties are so rare that going for an approximate configuration is not going to be easily challenged! 

 

And last, yes, early RF-4B used the initial Mk.5 seat.

 

Cheers

 

Thierry

 

 

 

 

.

[easixpedro]

5 hours ago, thierry laurent said:

Excellent project! The F-4B is also my favorite mark. 

 

Some inputs :

 

It's too late for you but there's no need to cut the bump in front of the MLG wells. You can simply sand them

 thanks to the plastic thickness!

 

Airbrakes were not simply flat. They also had different structural details and holes. So, 'flattening' the kit part does not give a correct B airbrake. This is not that visible but I guess you prefer knowing it.

 

There were indeed various RIO pit port side configurations as we had essentially there ranks of boxes. It is quite difficult finding good information about that evolution. Some are better known than others such as the Shoehorn upgrade. Note I think the modellers able to distinguish such subtleties are so rare that going for an approximate configuration is not going to be easily challenged! 

 

And last, yes, early RF-4B used the initial Mk.5 seat.

 

Cheers

 

Thierry

 

 

 

 

.

Thanks Thierry! You are correct on all accounts!

 

On my previous build, I just sanded that bump forward of the gear well. I'm hamfisted on my best days, so obliterated all the lovely detail. I figure this is worth the shot of getting some small seams that I can then scrape w/ a sharp blade and hopefully save those details. Time will tell of course!

 

For the speedbrakes, that detail will be hidden by the flaps being down, so not as concerned as I would be otherwise. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said about the gear doors--will have to figure out my plan of action there (in due time of course).

 

As with most of my builds, this will be a fine balance of getting everything to look good without going hog wild. I'll skimp on places that will be hard to see or obstructed (like the cockpit, which with closed canopies and a figure that will obscure most details). I figure anyone looking at it will be too busy trying to figure out how I did the hook to pick out smaller details. That's my hope anyway!

 

More soon, getting the bug on this build and thinking about it constantly which is always a good sign the mojo is flowing.

-Peter