Italeri CF-104 Starfighter "Kicked up a Notch": KLP Publishing eBook now Available!

[J.C.]

3 hours ago, skydivin said:

Another awesome build Chuck.  Still think you need that Chuck's Book of Tricks and Tips!   Appreciate your time to document this build.

I second that motion!!

[LSP_Kevin]

5 hours ago, skydivin said:

Another awesome build Chuck.  Still think you need that Chuck's Book of Tricks and Tips!   Appreciate your time to document this build.

 

2 hours ago, J.C. said:

I second that motion!!

 

Well, there's always this:

 

 

 

Kev

 

[Pete Fleischmann]

Chuck, Chuck, CHUCK!!

Brilliant! In fact; I’ve got an IAF Mirage IIICJ to finish some day. My plan was to foil it, but after seeing this master class, I think a whole new approach is in order!

Cheers

P

 

[Neo]

Hey Chuck 

 

I'm curious do you thing polishing the x-22 would bring back the shine? Just an idea. Dremel with tamiya polishing compounds maybe

 

 

[chuck540z3]

18 minutes ago, Neo said:

Hey Chuck 

 

I'm curious do you thing polishing the x-22 would bring back the shine? Just an idea. Dremel with tamiya polishing compounds maybe

 

 

 

Hi Neo,

 

As mentioned earlier, I am convinced that the shine is lost a bit because you are losing the metallic reflection, and not just a shiny reflection.  You can't tell from the pics very well, but the X-22 is as shiny as anything I've ever sprayed, including the gloss black undercoat.  If you want a technical reason, there are lots of explanations if you Google them that I only half understand, but it's clear to me that clearcoats- of any kind-  filter this metallic reflectivity.  Here is an example of what is fairly widespread on the 'net.

 

Why Are Metals Shiny?

 

Cheers,

Chuck

[Derek B]

4 hours ago, chuck540z3 said:

 

Hi Neo,

 

As mentioned earlier, I am convinced that the shine is lost a bit because you are losing the metallic reflection, and not just a shiny reflection.  You can't tell from the pics very well, but the X-22 is as shiny as anything I've ever sprayed, including the gloss black undercoat.  If you want a technical reason, there are lots of explanations if you Google them that I only half understand, but it's clear to me that clearcoats- of any kind-  filter this metallic reflectivity.  Here is an example of what is fairly widespread on the 'net.

 

Why Are Metals Shiny?

 

Cheers,

Chuck

 

One of the reasons why I like aluminium foil Chuck - it can be polished to a chrome finish if desired (still doesn't help the varnish issue though, unless you can loose the decal film or spray/paint the markings onto it directly)...it can also be handled without fear of damage.

 

Great work and tutorial Chuck; I have learned so much from this build, and I agree that to capture this all in a feature/book would be of value to modellers everywhere.

 

Cheers

 

Derek

[Marine104]

Lovely finish Chuck, reassuring now that when you touch the model nothing comes off anymore! Hmm, just spitballing here, would it be possible to airbrush an ultra-thin chrome filter over the near finished model once the decals/washes are on? The aim being to bring back a little bit of the true metallic reflection. I know after trying it you can thin the Alclad High-Shine paints with Gunze Levelling thinner and put on super thin 'metallic filters' (like 95/5 thinner to paint) but I'm not sure how it would go with Tamiya Lacquer thinner, that stuff is hotter than the Gunze levelling thinner. You will be back to the handling issues again but with the finish you already have underneath providing 99% of the metallic appearance, any slight damage to the 1% chrome mist would be unnoticeable. Maybe it might help in reducing some of the stencils' contrast also, IDK. I guess you would have to mask off all the non metallic areas/markings somehow or be super accurate with the airbrush close in. And maybe I'm talking a load nonsense! 

 

Not to say your finish isn't great, it's amazing already but just to bring back that 'metallic pop' a little more for the reasons you give in your clear coat theory in which I fully agree with. A shiny surface isn't quite the same as a metallic shine, despite bring very close here. 

 

Also, I may have missed it, what stores are you planning to go with (if any)? 

 

keep up the top work,

 

David

Edited March 9, 2021 by Marine104

[Rocat]

Wow. That finish looks realistic from here.

[chuck540z3]

Thank you everyone for your kind responses!

 

4 hours ago, Derek B said:

 

One of the reasons why I like aluminium foil Chuck - it can be polished to a chrome finish if desired (still doesn't help the varnish issue though, unless you can loose the decal film or spray/paint the markings onto it directly)...it can also be handled without fear of damage.

 

Great work and tutorial Chuck; I have learned so much from this build, and I agree that to capture this all in a feature/book would be of value to modellers everywhere.

 

Cheers

 

Derek

 

1 hour ago, Marine104 said:

Lovely finish Chuck, reassuring now that when you touch the model nothing comes off anymore! Hmm, just spitballing here, would it be possible to airbrush an ultra-thin chrome filter over the near finished model once the decals/washes are on? The aim being to bring back a little bit of the true metallic reflection. I know after trying it you can thin the Alclad High-Shine paints with Gunze Levelling thinner and put on super thin 'metallic filters' (like 95/5 thinner to paint) but I'm not sure how it would go with Tamiya Lacquer thinner, that stuff is hotter than the Gunze levelling thinner. You will be back to the handling issues again but with the finish you already have underneath providing 99% of the metallic appearance, any slight damage to the 1% chrome mist would be unnoticeable. Maybe it might help in reducing some of the stencils' contrast also, IDK. I guess you would have to mask off all the non metallic areas/markings somehow or be super accurate with the airbrush close in. And maybe I'm talking a load nonsense! 

 

Not to say your finish isn't great, it's amazing already but just to bring back that 'metallic pop' a little more for the reasons you give in your clear coat theory in which I fully agree with. A shiny surface isn't quite the same as a metallic shine, despite bring very close here. 

 

Also, I may have missed it, what stores are you planning to go with (if any)? 

 

keep up the top work,

 

David

 

Thanks guys for your input and advice!  As mentioned many times, once of the things I enjoy about this hobby the most is that I'm always learning new things (like using HGW decal rivets) and new techniques.   A few general comments based upon the suggestions:

 

• While foil still makes the best looking metallic finish, it's hard to handle and decal film leaves an edge, so like this model, you compromise something to achieve something else.  I think I have the right balance of what looks mostly like metal and what I can handle going forward.
• If there was a really good looking metallic finish that you could handle with your oily fingers and apply decal solutions to without a clear coat, we would all know about it by now.  As far as I know, it doesn't exist.
• I have gone too far on this model to start trying anything risky.  When I think of all the work I've done in the cockpit, avionics bay and all those tiny decal rivets, messing up the final finish with an experiment gone bad could be a disaster!
• I masked off a few panels yesterday to spray them a few different shades of Aluminum.  Generally speaking, the finish held up to masking tape de-tacked a bit on my skin, but there were a few small areas that lifted slightly, where the X-22 may have been a bit too thin.  Thankfully I discovered a fairly quick repair:  Re-spray Chrome, then re-spray X-22 right on top of it, before it has fully dried.  It just goes to show how fragile these high shine finishes are.
• I need to paint fuel caps (with surrounding rings) bright red, along with the long blast line at the rear of the jet.  VERY risky without a really well done masking job that hopefully doesn't lift, because repair jobs next to red will be a challenge.
• I have a full range of water based metallic washes that I may try on this model to give it something a little extra and also weather the paint slightly.  I will apply these washes to a test mule before I commit to this model.
• This model will be carrying an MN-1A bomb dispenser on the center line pylon, which is a modified SUU-21 dispenser.  It's almost finished and I'll be showing it soon.

 

Cheers,

Chuck

 

 

[Landrotten Highlander]

MAybe a stupid question, bet regarding the red lines around fuel caps: can you not create a stencil type device that you dip against wet paint, then place against your model?  Might be a bit challenging to get the thing central, but perhaps safer than masking?

Think old-fashion stamps on official documents (like the red TOP SECRET) on paper files.

[chuck540z3]

23 minutes ago, Landrotten Highlander said:

MAybe a stupid question, bet regarding the red lines around fuel caps: can you not create a stencil type device that you dip against wet paint, then place against your model?  Might be a bit challenging to get the thing central, but perhaps safer than masking?

Think old-fashion stamps on official documents (like the red TOP SECRET) on paper files.

 

For that you get ONE SHOT to make it perfectly central with even paint application.  I'm not that lucky! 

 

Cheers,

Chuck

[Landrotten Highlander]

14 minutes ago, chuck540z3 said:

 

For that you get ONE SHOT to make it perfectly central with even paint application.  I'm not that lucky! 

 

Cheers,

Chuck

practice makes perfect......

You do have a couple of centuries, don't you?

 

[ScoobyDoo]

On 3/8/2021 at 1:31 AM, Chek said:

 

I recall reading long ago that the gloss white was a special hard epoxy finish used to protect the bare metal of the wing from erosion caused by the hi-pressure bleed air.

No idea how true that is.

Correct, the 104 used engine bleed air to lower landing speeds. This hot air was forced through bleed valves in the wings over the top rear surface of the wing towards the trailing edge flaps. This increased air flow reduced air pressure on the top of the wing and increased lift. This heat eroded the bare aluminum surface of the wings and therefore the top of the wings were finished in a hard epoxy finish (gloss white) to protect the wing.  The bottom of the wing (painted gray) did not need this treatment as the heat was not directed over that surface. The system was called the boundary layer control system.

 

Subsequent paint schemes still required the epoxy treatment with a durable paint coat (by that time paint quality had improved and a high gloss was not needed).

 

Great looking build Chuck! You continue to amaze!
 

[jeroen_R90S]

That looks superb, and thanks for the lots of hints, tips and information on how you go about things to reach such a result -I don't always reply or like a post, but it's really appreciated

 

One question though, regarding the rivets, can you also apply a strip of them in a U-shape or circle (not too small), or won't the carrier film allow that and you have to do that rivet-by-rivet (say I want to rivet an oval access panel or something with positive rivets)

 

Jeroen

[IainM]

2 hours ago, jeroen_R90S said:

That looks superb, and thanks for the lots of hints, tips and information on how you go about things to reach such a result -I don't always reply or like a post, but it's really appreciated

 

One question though, regarding the rivets, can you also apply a strip of them in a U-shape or circle (not too small), or won't the carrier film allow that and you have to do that rivet-by-rivet (say I want to rivet an oval access panel or something with positive rivets)

 

Jeroen

HGW does make them, albeit for the German WW2 machines - Access Panel templates and rivets. There might be other sets out there,but I only have the German ones. Circles, ovals, etc, etc. Ive just finished riveting a G14 using one of their sets - once you've got the learning curve under the belt, they are just great!