Italeri CF-104 Starfighter "Kicked up a Notch": KLP Publishing eBook now Available!

[chuck540z3]

18 minutes ago, Neo said:

Im going to follow this one real close. I have the same build planned. 

 

Funny enough your box decals appear to have the correct maple leafs. Mine has the ones that look like mari jane leafs ! Wonder if the fixed the decals at some point. 

 

 

There's nothing wrong with your maple leafs.  You have the early 60's RCAF ones, which changed to the simpler ones I have in 1968 when our politicians decided that the RCAF, Navy and Army should join together as the "Canadian Forces".  Stupid, so 43 years later in 2011, the Air Force was re designated the RCAF again.  I bet your kit number is #2502 or there a bouts?  Check the first pic I have in this thread.  I bet they look just like those ones?  I like those early maple leaf roundels more than the ones I have, but with 2 sets now, I'm committed to stick with them.

 

Cheers,

Chuck

Edited December 3, 2020 by chuck540z3

[Neo]

7 hours ago, chuck540z3 said:

 

There's nothing wrong with your maple leafs.  You have the early 60's RCAF ones, which changed to the simpler ones I have in 1968 when our politicians decided that the RCAF, Navy and Army should join together as the "Canadian Forces".  Stupid, so 43 years later in 2011, the Air Force was re designated the RCAF again.  I bet your kit number is #2502 or there a bouts?  Check the first pic I have in this thread.  I bet they look just like those ones?  I like those early maple leaf roundels more than the ones I have, but with 2 sets now, I'm committed to stick with them.

 

Cheers,

Chuck

Well Chuck youve done it again! You are totally right. 

 

Well im starting this day with new knowledge! 

Thank

[Oldbaldguy]

Like everyone else, I can’t wait for this build to start.  But I have a question:  Have you given any thought to how you will depict all those bazillion flush rivets on a natural metal finish?  In 1:1, these airplanes are very smooth all over.  The fasteners aren’t divots nor do they stand out proud from the skin.  You clearly can see them but can’t really feel them to any degree that would be even minutely noticeable in 1/32.  It will be interesting to see how you approach this.

[chuck540z3]

5 hours ago, Oldbaldguy said:

Like everyone else, I can’t wait for this build to start.  But I have a question:  Have you given any thought to how you will depict all those bazillion flush rivets on a natural metal finish?  In 1:1, these airplanes are very smooth all over.  The fasteners aren’t divots nor do they stand out proud from the skin.  You clearly can see them but can’t really feel them to any degree that would be even minutely noticeable in 1/32.  It will be interesting to see how you approach this.

 

Thanks, Ill try to do a good job!

 

Good question and one I keep asking myself.  The model clearly needs a LOT more rivets, but coming even close to the real deal for quantity is impossible and not really practical.  Here are my three options:

 

1) HGW wet transfer silver rivets

 

These rivets come in all sizes and spacing and might work really well- or be a disaster!  Other than the large cost and extensive time required to apply them, they will be applied over some fairly bright Alclad finishes like polished Aluminum and maybe even Chrome on some panels.  These bright finishes do not take well to decals or masking tape, so they might stain or peel the paint off when the top film is removed.   Even if this doesn't happen, they might stand out from the background finish too much, creating an Excel spreadsheet pattern all over the place that is distracting and very unrealistic.  I’ll pass on this idea.

 

2) “Rosie the Riveter Tool”. 

 

I have one of these on order in tiny 0.40 mm spacing, because the rivets are really tight on most panels.  This might bring up the never-ending recessed vs raised rivet debate, to which I will respond with this:  While most of the rivets aren’t recessed, they aren’t raised either and how else do you indicate a rivet pattern?  That’s why 95% of aircraft models have recessed rivets.  I already have the Trumpeter wheeled rivet tool and I hate it, because you can’t see where the wheel is going due to a thick plastic shroud around the metal wheel.  The Rosie tool is wide open, which should make this a lot easier to see and guide.

 

3) Free-hand with a needle in a pin vice. 

 

This is how I usually do it and it has worked fairly well for me so far with my F-5E build shown below as an example.  Like the bare metal finish on this model, this one was gloss black that showed every tiny flaw, so it must be done as cleanly as possible.

 

My guess is that I’ll be using a combination of #2 and #3 that will never be totally accurate, but a lot better than the kit detail now.

 

 

 

 

Cheers,

Chuck

Edited December 3, 2020 by chuck540z3

[Fenous]

Here you can see, how HGW rivets look under Alclad II, I think they are worth the try.

[chuck540z3]

Thanks for that (and very nice model), but it appears to me that your finish is regular Aluminum, which is duller than what I was planning on and also much tougher.  Regular Alclad finishes take masking tape and decals OK, but their brighter finishes do not and even say so on their website.  Your results, however, tell me that I should give them a try on something else before I commit to digging my own rivets!

 

Thank you,

Chuck

Edited December 3, 2020 by chuck540z3

[Fenous]

Those rivets are UNDER coat of Alclad II, directly on highly polished black base.

[chuck540z3]

19 minutes ago, Fenous said:

Those rivets are UNDER coat of Alclad II, directly on highly polished black base.

 

Really!?  Now I AM going to give them a try.  I have a few in my stash and if they work, you may have helped me to kick this model up 2 notches!

 

Thanks,

Chuck

[Marcel111]

Really glad you are back on a jet... and really looking forward to following and learning a bunch on this WIP!

 

Marcel

[Starfighter]

Absolutely stunning, Fenous!

 

Chuck, keep in mind the rivets were sanded flush on all F-104s, there are literally no raised rivets on the airframe. The surfaces are extremely smooth and all you see is the recessed outlines of the rivets; I think doing them with a beading tool instead of a needle would be the most realistic option. 

 

 

[chuck540z3]

Thanks for that heads up Ben, which begins the do-loop dilemma all over again:  The rivets aren't recessed either, so what do you do?

 

Unlike Archer raised rivets, these rivets are not only much smaller, the relief on them can hardly be felt at all.  They are also silver, so they might look really cool under a coat of Alclad after a light buff.  I've got a little experiment going already to find out, so stay tuned!

 

Cheers,

Chuck

[Oldbaldguy]

Hopefully somebody wiser than I am will weigh in here, but I’ve never seen “recessed rivets” in aviation.  I’ve seen only regular domed head rivets that rise above the skin or flush rivets that are, well, flush with the surface of the skin once driven.  Aircraft skins typically aren’t thick enough to allow for such a thing and recessed rivets would be a manufacturing nightmare.  I think they are mostly a modeling thing.

[chuck540z3]

20 minutes ago, Oldbaldguy said:

Hopefully somebody wiser than I am will weigh in here, but I’ve never seen “recessed rivets” in aviation.  I’ve seen only regular domed head rivets that rise above the skin or flush rivets that are, well, flush with the surface of the skin once driven.  Aircraft skins typically aren’t thick enough to allow for such a thing and recessed rivets would be a manufacturing nightmare.  I think they are mostly a modeling thing.

 

All true and this has been debated for years, but the one thing that is real is that you can see them, so how do you replicate rivets on a plastic model if they are flush?  If they are recessed and not too deep, they can really look the part.  Here's an example, obviously all recessed.  I don't see how else you can do this, but maybe these HGW decal rivets will look as good or better?

 

 

 

Cheers,

Chuck

[themongoose]

2 hours ago, chuck540z3 said:

 

All true and this has been debated for years, but the one thing that is real is that you can see them, so how do you replicate rivets on a plastic model if they are flush?  If they are recessed and not too deep, they can really look the part.  Here's an example, obviously all recessed.  I don't see how else you can do this, but maybe these HGW decal rivets will look as good or better?

 

 

 

Cheers,

Chuck

ooh, ooh, Chuck you should put in all the rivets, fill them with Mr Surfacer, let the filler shrink back, sand the surface smooth and then paint to capture the look in those CF104 pics. What do you think, probably make a great tutorial right? Don’t send the   out after me lol 

[Alex]

2 hours ago, themongoose said:

ooh, ooh, Chuck you should put in all the rivets, fill them with Mr Surfacer, let the filler shrink back, sand the surface smooth and then paint to capture the look in those CF104 pics. What do you think, probably make a great tutorial right? Don’t send the   out after me lol 

The scary thing is that this would probably work and look really realistic - after untold hours of work....