Anthony in NZ Posted October 28, 2020 Author Share Posted October 28, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Derek B said: I know Anthony, I am also still learning about this beast myself! I've started looking into the radome length issue more closely now simply because I want to know what is correct! Between two dimensioned MDD F-4K drawings, there is a difference between the overall aircraft length and the radome line break dimensions of approximately 7 inches, which may equate to a frame (station) spacing. I am aware that the F-4K was required to have a hinged radome in order to provide RN carrier platform lift clearance. I do not know if the standard F-4J aircraft has a similar arrangement or not, but if it doesn't (i.e. the radome is simply bolted straight onto the radar bulkhead), then it is possible that the F-4K was modified in this area and that could account for the F-4K airframe station break anomalies? Derek Seems like the Radome on the J was hinged as well just like the FG.1, which makes sense I guess. Was the FGR's hinged or removable only? Edit: Photo's show the FGR.2 hinged as well... again makes sense Edited October 28, 2020 by Anthony in NZ Derek B, AlbertD and Greg W 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vvwse4 Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 Hi Anthony, Great work here mate, I am really enjoying and learning a lot of this. Cheers Rick Anthony in NZ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scjh Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 Hello All, After looking quickly through my photo library, I didn't find good side shots of Phantoms with long focal length, so I'll use a few closer shots of an F-4S to overlay MDD F-4K Drawing 3762 (in cyan) that Derek B was so kind to share with me. The drawing is only good along the vertical center plane (BL0.0), so cannot match any features that deviate from there. Comparing flat 2d drawings (inaccurate shapes, inconsistent scaling or warping, etc.) and 3d photos (perspective, lens distortion, warping, cropping, etc.) I have found to be very tricky. A technique I have been learning is photogrammetry, which uses multiple photos from multiple viewpoints to reconstruct a 3d model. The following overlays use such a model in orthgraphic views. The missing areas are due to insufficient photos to cover those angles (mostly the bottom side). And a good set of drawings with good dimension data is essential to help scale the model and to line it up to the axes. Derek B's MDD F-4K Drawing 3762 (cyan). Jumpei Temma's F-4C drawing (red). I have found this F-4BCDJ Drawing 32-1144 (yellow) from Aviation Archives to be very good. (Note in the top view the intake splitter plate seems to be too far from the fuselage.) This combines the 3 drawings. I hope that was helpful. Now a question I would like to get a definitive answer from the real Phantom experts here is where does the short randome end. I have seen both CFS48.28 and CFS46.68 in different official station diagrams. The tip is usually stated as at FS-27.10 at the height of WL10.58. SC AlbertD, Landrotten Highlander, Paul in Napier and 6 others 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek B Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 Thank you so much SC, that is more than helpful (the three overlays appears to be in general agreement). We now have confirmation that the F-4J and F-4K/M feature similar (right) hinged radomes. I also have noted the same radome station break anomaly (even if it is only 2.4 inches), so I too would also like to know why that is? (I have also asked Tommy H. Thomason for his views on this subject, so we shall see). Regards Derek Anthony in NZ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scjh Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 After digging through some more drawings, photos, and forums postings, I think I might have an answer about the radome. It is yes and yes. The radome does end at CFS48.28, but there is a metal ring (for mounting?) on the aft portion of radome that is supposed to be painted the same color as the aircraft (from CFS46.68 to CFS48.28?), which also isn't always followed. So painting wise, the radome looks like it ends at CFS46.68 (radome trim) sometimes, and CFS48.28 other times, but physically it ends at CFS48.28. SC Anthony in NZ, Derek B and Greg W 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony in NZ Posted October 29, 2020 Author Share Posted October 29, 2020 Well thank you all! Such brilliant information here, I am trying to process everything posted and relate it back to the kit. I am SUPER appreciative of such help from such knowledgeable and talented people....thanks! A great development is there are a couple of ex 43 Sqn guys on Britmodeller who have been an enormous help. Long story short they have contacted a Jim Evans who was one of the designers of this awesome scheme XV571 had. He has forwarded on some interesting details on when she was getting designed and painted with a photo straight out of the paintshop. See below " ‘Alpha’ on the day we got her back from the painters on the Friday. I ‘project managed’ the task, starting from a bit of design. The Boss, Al Winkles, liked the idea of her being painted as a fighting **** so I coloured over one of the Sqn Prints. Meanwhile, Alan Carlaw or Dougald Cameron of Sqn Prints, submitted the design that the AOC agreed to. However, Al Winkles just told me to go with Alan’s/Dougald’s design, forgetting to tell me that the AOC’s parting shot was “without the spine”. I don’t think Alpha ever flew with the spine paintwork, she was back in the paint shop straight after the anniversary weekend....In answer to your question, you will see that there are names on the canopy. Definitely Al Winkles on the front but for some reason I recall it might have been Flt Lt Ian Brain on the back. The other thing to note is the non-standard Wg Cdr’s pennant. Al and I had visited the paint shop the day before and I noted that there was no pennant. I assumed that the painters would have a standard pattern but was surprised by blank faces. I said “ you know, a little triangular blue flag with a light blue inner triangle and red stripes”. They nodded and that’s pretty much what we got! " My sincere thanks to Jim for sharing this historic image and background. This is really bringing this model to life for me, and I believe Mark is directing him to this build going on here. Mark (Troffa on Britmodeller) has been a great help with this specific airframe, I am also very grateful to him Thanks again chaps...I need to study your posts Cheers Anthony Iain, Greg W, Derek B and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek B Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 (edited) On 10/29/2020 at 6:53 AM, scjh said: After digging through some more drawings, photos, and forums postings, I think I might have an answer about the radome. It is yes and yes. The radome does end at CFS48.28, but there is a metal ring (for mounting?) on the aft portion of radome that is supposed to be painted the same color as the aircraft (from CFS46.68 to CFS48.28?), which also isn't always followed. So painting wise, the radome looks like it ends at CFS46.68 (radome trim) sometimes, and CFS48.28 other times, but physically it ends at CFS48.28. SC Great work SC, thank you. It looks like this would account for the 2 inch difference in radome demarcation at the break (which is about 1.6 mm in 1/32 scale) - I wonder if this is why the Tamiya kit radome seems to be a little long? Tommy H. Thomason has provided some feedback to me an he has also confirmed the 2 inch metal band between the radome and fuselage (which is presumably the radar bulkhead at the hinge point) as the difference between the two station numbers quoted by scjh. So, with all of the evidence provided, apart from the tail Y-shaped fuel vent on the F-4K/M aircraft, which may add perhaps a couple of inches to the OAL of the aircraft, I believe that both F-4J and F-4K/M aircraft have the same OAL with both aircraft sharing identical right-hinged radomes. Regards Derek Edited October 30, 2020 by Derek B Greg W and Anthony in NZ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony in NZ Posted October 29, 2020 Author Share Posted October 29, 2020 6 hours ago, Derek B said: Great work SC, thank you. It looks like this would account for the 2 inch difference in radome demarcation at the break (which is about 1.6 mm in 1/32 scale) - I wonder if this is why the Tamiya kit radome seems to be a little long? Tommy H. Thomason has provided some feedback to me an he has also confirmed the 2 inch metal band between the radome and fuselage (which is presumably the radar bulkhead at the hinge point) as the difference between the two station numbers quoted by scjh. So, with all of the evidence provided, apart from the tail Y-shaped fuel vent on the F-4K/M aircraft, which may add perhaps a couple of inches to the OAL of the aircraft, I believe that both F-4J and F-4K/M aircraft have the same OAL with both aircraft sharing the identical right-hinged radomes. Regards Derek Thanks Derek, great conclusions to this info. This was what my feelings were as well. Great stuff guys. I think I will still need to modify the nose cone and the lower fuse just behind it. I will hopefully get this resin nose soon and see what they have done Cheers Anthony Greg W and Derek B 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony in NZ Posted November 2, 2020 Author Share Posted November 2, 2020 Just letting you all know that I havent been abducted by aliens and I have actually been solidly working on this back end. Have got a bit carried away with surface detailing which you will see when I get these two pieces glued together and given a 'Chuck Wash' all will be revealed Cheers Anthony vvwse4, Paul in Napier, Fanes and 10 others 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cees Broere Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 Another Frankentoom? Anthony in NZ and Derek B 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony in NZ Posted November 3, 2020 Author Share Posted November 3, 2020 On 11/2/2020 at 10:27 PM, Cees Broere said: Another Frankentoom? Looking a bit like it isnt it Cees....not as much or as impressive as yours mind you. Well the back end is pretty well finished.....phew, what a mission!!! I have just put the last few shims in and primed it. When set I will buff any imperfections, splash on my Chuck Wash and see what I am left with. All going well I can move up to the fin. This is still only press fitted in. There has been so much work go into this piece I dont know where to start. Thanks to Al (Albert D) for the spare part which enabled me to fix my hamfisted work and enable me to open up those vents each side of the hook tip end. I tried to make the metal plates around those vents more accurate and removed the 1/2 round metal panels behind the vents and glue them in the plastic part slightly proud and add fastener detail. Anyway, another mission complete, I cant wait to get back to the fin and finish that. Cheers Anthony scvrobeson, Brett M, patricksparks and 8 others 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony in NZ Posted November 4, 2020 Author Share Posted November 4, 2020 Ok pretty much finished this area. Couple of small areas that still need a buff, but I think I will call this done now so I can work on the fin again.... Again press fit... As always, thanks for tuning in Cheers Anthony Paul in Napier, Rockie Yarwood, Spooky56 and 12 others 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg W Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 Looks fantastic! Great job. Inspiring, informative and fun to follow! You can take a moment and enjoy a big step forward here. This part of the build was challenging and you expertly took it on and produced something incredibly good. Its very helpful to tag along and see a skillful, talented builder sort something out like this. Thanks, Greg Anthony in NZ and Derek B 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek B Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 Hi Anthony, That is the best rendition of the hot area of a British Phantom that I have ever seen anywhere - well done. Derek Anthony in NZ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSP_Kevin Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 Impressively neat and tidy, Anthony! Kev Derek B and Anthony in NZ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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