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boiss123

hit a brick wall about Richthofen Fokker dr 425/17....

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Planning on doing Richthofen's Fokker dr.1 425/17 in 1/32 scale and I have a question that I can not find a clear answer. I have all three pics of this plane intact two taken in March 1918 and another taken in April of 1918, all three pictures show the airplane after it has been painted all red I can not see any stencil markings nor serial number, but in almost every profile drawing or painting it shows the serial number and sometimes the weight stencil, same with models. Was this aircraft painted at the factory? Where the stencils reapplied after painting in the field? Or did the aircraft just have all those markings painted over?

Thanks

Denis

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Posted (edited)

Go with the pictures, not the profiles

Richard

 

MORE. Let me refine that. You and the profile makers are doing the same thing, starting with those pictures and making an interpretation. Now, it may be that the profile makers have access to better copies of the pictures (not prints of prints of prints) on which the serial numbers can be made out

 

You are choosing to do your own research, the same as the profile drawers - so it's the pictures for you. Maybe you'll reach the same conclusion as the profile drawers

Edited by RLWP

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Yeah there are a ton of different profiles and opinions on von R's last Triplane out there.

 

I intend to build it at some point and had taken notes over the years from forums etc. below but still there is a lot of opinion/conjecture I suppose....

 

Allan Teolle has conducted a thorough study of the port side fuselage cross at the RCMI in Toronto as well as a number of other pieces including an aluminium sample (red directly over the aluminium). A conclusion of his is that no streaky camouflage was ever applied although it has its normal under surface blue. It seems that this aircraft was built specifically for MvR.
 
"We eagerly anticipated finding evidence of the streaked camouflage on both sides of the cross-field of the RCMI specimen. We anticipated that the camouflaged areas would correspond to the areas of darkened red paint. However, careful examination under the microscope failed to reveal any coating material other than the clear dope and red, white, black, and blue paint mentioned above. There is no streaked camouflage present anywhere on the RCMI specimen!" 
 
 
Ed Ferco's observation of the military number 425/17 on the fuselage which he claimed is visible when viewing the negatives of one of the photos
 
As I have stated previously my personal belief is that 425/17 arrived from the factory in a red upper scheme with blue underneath and covered with normal stencils, at some stage prior to LeChelle the entire aircraft was painted red with the exception of its narrow bordered national insignia (as per the photos).   --Langdon

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1 hour ago, RLWP said:

it may be that the profile makers have access to better copies of the pictures (not prints of prints of prints) on which the serial numbers can be made out

 

Or not, and they just assumed and/or made stuff up.  It's happened before.

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9 minutes ago, Jennings Heilig said:

 

Or not, and they just assumed and/or made stuff up.  It's happened before.

 

I was being generous...

 

There are some profile makers who's work I greatly respect

 

And some others

 

Of course, a profile might be dictated by the company commissioning it

 

Richard

 

425/17 is soooo famous, I'd either go full on with the reddest profile of all, or leave her alone. Total 'Red Baron' or forget it for me

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Without seeing the specific photos in question, I really have no idea. But, for a total repaint, I see no reason why the various stenciling would be added back. A model, on the other hand, just looks better with it, at least in my opinion. For whatever it's worth, various photos of Dr.Is and D.VIIs that have had personal markings painted over portions of the stencils, seldom seem to have had the over-painted portions replaced.

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Ask most crew chiefs and they'll tell you that if you needed the stencil data to tell you what's what or what to do (or not to do), you're not much of a crew chief to start with.  It's not like any WWI crew chief needed a placard to tell him how much his airplane weighed.

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Posted (edited)

Put it this way - you can add the weight table and serial number to your Dr.I, or you can leave them off. No-one will be able to prove you wrong.

 

As pointed out above, the available evidence indicates that the factory painted 425/17 red. Whether they added the serial and the weight table or not is anyone's guess.

Edited by vince14

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Totally uneducated guess but if this aircraft was indeed painted red at the factory, I think that just as a matter of standard procedure, they would have added the serial number and weight table.  If it was my model, I'd include those markings.   

 

Just my $0.02. 

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What evidence do we have that 425/17 was made for Richthofen? The only plane that I know of that Fokker did as a special for a pilot is Goering's all white d.VII.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/29/2020 at 5:49 AM, boiss123 said:

What evidence do we have that 425/17 was made for Richthofen? The only plane that I know of that Fokker did as a special for a pilot is Goering's all white d.VII.

The fact that it has no Fokker streaking standard camoflage as evidence is just as compelling as Goering's all-white DVII;

Did you see this view in your search;

 

425closeup.jpg?width=371&height=225&fit=

 

edit;   bloody PhotoBucket, messing up my image :(

 

Edited by Snowbird3a

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Posted (edited)
On 6/29/2020 at 8:49 AM, boiss123 said:

What evidence do we have that 425/17 was made for Richthofen? The only plane that I know of that Fokker did as a special for a pilot is Goering's all white d.VII.

 

It is speculation based on that the original fabric and aluminum pieces that remain in museums from the crashed 425/17 have been closely examined and found to have a non-standard finish in that none of the typical factory applied dark green streaking or paint is present under the red on these parts as would be expected. This suggests the possibility 425/17 was a special build for von R from Fokker that was predominantly painted red at the factory similar to the later Goering DVII being painted white.

 

An alternative could be that major sections of the aircraft were re-covered with new fabric and aluminum at the squadron or depot level perhaps due to damage and never saw the green factory paint, only red. It would seem maybe a little odd that the top ace of the German air force would be assigned a aircraft that had suffered that level of damage and repair but who knows?

 

Or heck maybe the fabric and metal in the museums are excellent forgeries that have fooled the museums and WW1 Aviation historians for many many years. 

 

:)

 

 

 

Edited by petrov27

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