Very Early Spitfire Mk1 Help

[Aviacom]

Hi,

l’ve always wanted to do a very early Spitfire Mk1 of 19 Sqn when they were at Duxford in 1938.

 

I have the 1/32nd Revell Spit Mk2a (New version) but can’t seem to find and aftermarket for it regarding the Watts 2 Blade Prop, Resin Cockpit, Correct Oil Cooler, Etc.

 

As it’s been an ambition of mine to do this for my lounge display cabinet, I’d like to throw all that I can at it to make it the ultimate Spitfire model.

 

Can anyone point me in the right direction please of what aftermarket items I would need for this project, and where to get them please, as I’ve spent hours searching but not come up with anything.

Thanks in advance

[RLWP]

22 minutes ago, Aviacom said:

the ultimate Spitfire model.

 

What's the betting you have started with the wrong kit...

 

I have Modeller Datafile 3 from the year 2000 - which predates that kit and the evolution of aftermarket parts. That recommends using the Revell MK.I for a 1A, or the same kit with the Hasegawa MK.Vb wing for a 1B

 

It has 19Sqn having MK.1B aeroplanes with cannons but no machine guns

 

Richard

[thierry laurent]

Hi,

 

With regard to early Spitfire 1/32 aftermarket, I think that only Greymatter and MDC have some items. However, to do an early Mk.I, you will be on your own for some features. For instance, currently, there is no typical Mk.I instrument panel!

 

This may already help you a little bit:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GMAA3201-1-32-SCALE-SPITFIRE-PROTOTYPE-EARLY-TWO-BLADE-PROP-AND-CONTROL-LEVER/224026646527?epid=1812950145&hash=item34290757ff:g:fF4AAOSw20Bez-rW

 

With the recent Revell kit you also need to backdate it to the Mk.I/early Mk.II features (e.g. fabric stabs), and remove some wrong features (such as the lights on the nose).

 

Hth

 

Thierry

[RLWP]

You can also decide how you feel about the representation of the rivets on that version of the kit:

 

 

http://www.hyperscale.com/2014/reviews/kits/spitfireiirevell32previewmn_1.htm

 

They're representing countersunk, flush fitting rivets - I'd fill them in personally

 

Richard

[dennismcc]

This was the late Edgar Brookes take on the Revell kit from https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234962817-new-revell-132-spitfire/

 

I've been loaned one, for a couple of hours, so have had a chance for a quick assessment:-
1/. it needs a "Mk.I" oil cooler.
2/. it needs the crowbar deleting, unless your model dates after January 1942 (the fit was retrospective.)
3/. 2-bar rudder pedals are o.k., but need the fabric straps over the top.
4/. gun button was brass, with a silver surround, not red (post-war elfin safety?)
5/. Very pistol cartridge rack was normally left off, and Castle Bromwich had (red) plastic seats, not (green) metal.
6/. seat armour is missing.
7/, seat backrest has an odd depression moulded in, which I've never seen.
8/. I have no idea what part 40 is, and 41 (oxygen bottle) should be black, not green.
9/. part 42 (compressed-air bottles) was silver, not green.
9/. rudder and elevators' "stitching" is overdone.
10/. I have no idea what the two "lozenges" (on the top of each wing) are.
11/. unless your Mk.II dates from 1940, the rudder "prong" shouldn't be there, neither should the aerial.
12/. post 1940, IFF aerials were fitted, and the position of the discs is marked.
13/. if you drop the flaps, the door, in the top of the wing, needs to be cut out, and opened.
14/. 50B is/are/were "station keeping lights," which might have been coloured like the navigation lights, but that remains a mystery, for now.

15/. while over-prominent, the "rivets" are nowhere near as bad as the photos appeared to show.

16/. the fuselage is about 2mm shorter than the Hasegawa Vb (all at the spinner end,) but it doesn't "shout," and it appears to have better curvature than the (somewhat slab-sided) Hasegawa fuselage.

17/, wingspan and chord (minus wingtips) are identical to the Hasegawa Vb.

18/. Revell have matched Tamiya, in the wheel wells, by providing back-sloping walls - very well done - but the "orifices" are too oval.

19/. there are three oblong "protuberances" on the spinner, but Revell do tell you to file them off.

20/. Revell have confused Sky with Sky Blue (oh, yes, they have.)

21/. instrument panel is fixed, but is missing the landing lights control.

Sorry, the owner wants it back, so any further "conversation" will have to wait.

Edgar

 

For my build I used the following Barracuda sets

Seat and seat armour

Cockpit upgrade kit

Spitfire Mk.I/II wing correction set

Spitfire Mk.I-V cockpit door without crow bar

Spitfire 5 slot main wheels

 

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

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Edited May 29, 2020 by dennismcc

[RLWP]

I wondered why you linked to the thread on Britmodeller @dennismcc when there is a similar thread here. I found the LSP thread half way through the BM one - and now I see why you pointed the OP to BM

 

Even so, skip either thread after the second page if you are looking for modelling information. It's worth going to the end of the BM one to find:

 

Quote

In the light of further research, I'd like to amend the following, in that list:-

4/. The gun button was brass, but the surround was (often worn) red.

8/. Part 40 appears to be the lever for operating the landing lights, and should be fitted to the bottom edge of the arch above the pilot's left leg.

10/. It seems that some rebuilds have stiffening plates, there, but wartime airframes wouldn't.

19/. Judging by photos the "lumps" are the labels fitted on early spinners, denoting where a screw is locked/unlocked, hence Revell's removal order.

20/. Thanks to Nick Millman, it seems that Revell's Sky Blue is a match for Sky.

Edgar

 

My head is now hurting, filled with venom, RAF Mod numbers and confusion about Spitfire fuselage widths. I think I'll go and have a lie down

 

Richard

Edited May 29, 2020 by RLWP

[Pete Roberts]

Okay, a few things to look for with the first production Spitfires:

 

1. Two blade wooden fixed pitch propellor. I believe this similar to that fitted to the Hurricane. I may have one here you can have, but need to check.

2. No gun sight. Ring and bead sights were used, ring mounted where you see the gun sight on later versions, and a 'bead' mounted on the cowling

3. Early windscreen - no armour plate panel

4. The sliding canopy is flat topped and sides

5. Early undercarriage retraction mechanism - pump action lever

6. I don't think the voltage accumulator (?) was mounted behind the head rest, but rather lower down on the port cockpit wall, near the seat pan - no hard evidence for this

7. Hydraulic fluid reservoir mounted behind the frame carrying the seat, starboard side. I believe this may have been the same as that used in the Walrus. 

8. Given point 7. above, I think the oxygen tank may have been initially positioned beneath the seat. No hard evidence for this. 

9. Mechanism to open the cockpit door is a simple ring with wire attached to each spring loaded locking pin. No crow bar.

10. Metal seat

11. There are two flare chutes behind the cockpit, exiting through the wing lower centre section.

12. No armour plate, no rear vision mirror, no clear view panel in canopy

13. Pole type aerial mounted on what looks like a spring base attached to the usual insulation with a metal plate at it’s base on the fuselage spine.

14. Guns have flash suppressors on them and some project beyond the leading edge of the wing

15. I don't have the kit but suspect the belly needs to have two flare chute covers scribed to match the tubes behind the seat - this is why the wing join panel line on one side has a kink

16. No IFF, no IFF insulators in the fuselage sides

17. Two pronged pitot tube

18. You kit is a Mk II so you will need to excluded or eliminate the Coffman starter bulge on the starboard cowling and the inspection windows each side of the forward fuselage. I am not sure which oil cooler is in the kit, but Mk I's had the early version - a sort of half circle when viewed from in front.

19. All control surfaces - ailerons, elevators and rudder - were fabric covered

20. Note the undercarriage retraction indicators in the upper wings

 

I think that covers most of it but that is off the top of my head. I would suggest you look at getting the Eduard cockpit set for this kit as a good start, together with the Barracuda Update set and wheels. The Grey Matter update set has the early undercarriage retraction mechanism you need for the cockpit. You should be able to find some generic ring and bead photo etch. HGW provide some nice Sutton Harness sets. One is an 'early' version with what appears to be leather inserts at the ends. I am not sure if these were used on the early Spitfires. May be worth a check of reference photos.Your biggest head ache I think will be the canopy/windscreen.

 

There are also some good walk around photos over on Britmodeller of a restored early build Spitfire - the restoration is very good and very close to what was (but has the IFF insulators in the fuselage sides!) so has some good references. When first delivered these aircraft had painted aluminium lower surfaces, the serial repeated under each wing, and I think 'B' type roundels - decals may also be an issue, but at 1/32 you could probably use stencils.

 

Hope that helps

 

PR

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Pete Roberts

[Mark P]

FWIW, I just received the new book from Wingleader on the Spitfire Mk I. They state the crowbar introduced from 1941 and never red. A number of other details are identified, many captured in this thread.

 

Mark Proulx

[19squadron]

On 5/29/2020 at 9:16 AM, RLWP said:

 

What's the betting you have started with the wrong kit...

 

I have Modeller Datafile 3 from the year 2000 - which predates that kit and the evolution of aftermarket parts. That recommends using the Revell MK.I for a 1A, or the same kit with the Hasegawa MK.Vb wing for a 1B

 

It has 19Sqn having MK.1B aeroplanes with cannons but no machine guns

 

Richard

19 Squadron were the first to be issued Spitfires in august 1938 - 8 gun Spitfires.

 

They were the first to be issued cannon armed Spitfires in June 1940, these first MkI b's were armed with two 20MM Hispanos and no Browning MG;s, the guns were so unreliable that the squadron was soon begging to have browning armed aircraft back.

 

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by 19squadron

[19squadron]

11 hours ago, Pete Roberts said:

Okay, a few things to look for with the first production Spitfires:

 

1. Two blade wooden fixed pitch propellor. I believe this similar to that fitted to the Hurricane. I may have one here you can have, but need to check.

2. No gun sight. Ring and bead sights were used, ring mounted where you see the gun sight on later versions, and a 'bead' mounted on the cowling

3. Early windscreen - no armour plate panel

4. The sliding canopy is flat topped and sides

5. Early undercarriage retraction mechanism - pump action lever

6. I don't think the voltage accumulator (?) was mounted behind the head rest, but rather lower down on the port cockpit wall, near the seat pan - no hard evidence for this

7. Hydraulic fluid reservoir mounted behind the frame carrying the seat, starboard side. I believe this may have been the same as that used in the Walrus. 

8. Given point 7. above, I think the oxygen tank may have been initially positioned beneath the seat. No hard evidence for this. 

9. Mechanism to open the cockpit door is a simple ring with wire attached to each spring loaded locking pin. No crow bar.

10. Metal seat

11. There are two flare chutes behind the cockpit, exiting through the wing lower centre section.

12. No armour plate, no rear vision mirror, no clear view panel in canopy

13. Pole type aerial mounted on what looks like a spring base attached to the usual insulation plate 

14. Guns have flash suppressors on them and some project beyond the leading edge of the wing

15. I don't have the kit but suspect the belly needs to have two flare chute covers scribed to match the tubes behind the seat - this is why the wing join panel line on one side has a kink

16. No IFF, no IFF insulators in the fuselage sides

17. Two pronged pitot tube

18. You kit is a Mk II so you will need to excluded or eliminate the Coffman starter bulge on the starboard cowling and the inspection windows each side of the forward fuselage. I am not sure which oil cooler is in the kit, but Mk I's had the early version - a sort of half circle when viewed from in front.

19. All control surfaces - ailerons, elevators and rudder - were fabric covered

20. Note the undercarriage retraction indicators in the upper wings

 

I think that covers most of it but that is off the top of my head. I would suggest you look at getting the Eduard cockpit set for this kit as a good start, together with the Barracuda Update set and wheels. The Grey Matter update set has the early undercarriage retraction mechanism you need for the cockpit. You should be able to find some generic ring and bead photo etch. HGW provide some nice Sutton Harness sets. One is an 'early' version with what appears to be leather inserts at the ends. I am not sure if these were used on the early Spitfires. May be worth a check of reference photos.Your biggest head ache I think will be the canopy/windscreen.

 

There are also some good walk around photos over on Britmodeller of a restored early build Spitfire - the restoration is very good and very close to what was (but has the IFF insulators in the fuselage sides!) so has some good references. When first delivered these aircraft had painted aluminium lower surfaces, the serial repeated under each wing, and I think 'B' type roundels - decals may also be an issue, but at 1/32 you could probably use stencils.

 

Hope that helps

 

PR

 

 

 

 In 1938 the straight topped canopy's were rapidly replaced, and in the press shots of the squadron lined up there are aircraft with both balooned tops and straight tops, so you'd have the option in 1938.

The hydraulic resevoir behind frame 11 fed the manual undercarriage lift, it was present on K series L series and P series Spitfires and even the first MkII's built at Castle Bromwich. The hydraulic resevoir moved to underneath the engine cowling on aircraft with non manual undercarriage lift. The pilots oxygen tank is always in the same place behind frame 11 underneath the hydraulic resevoir on early aircraft.

All early Spitfires had no voltage regulator at all [except the pilot] the battery charge was controlled by a three way switch on the instrument panel, 12v voltage regulators were fitted to reduce pilot workload in N series aircraft. All these early aircraft had Merlin II's which had significantly different wiring/instrument panel etc than aircrft built with the Merlin III.

Edited May 30, 2020 by 19squadron

[19squadron]

23 hours ago, RLWP said:

You can also decide how you feel about the representation of the rivets on that version of the kit:

 

 

http://www.hyperscale.com/2014/reviews/kits/spitfireiirevell32previewmn_1.htm

 

They're representing countersunk, flush fitting rivets - I'd fill them in personally

 

Richard

 

There is a more significant problem in that the nose of the Revell kits is too long by 3mm forward of the canopy, and the fuselage is too wide and the wrong shape midway along the fuselage. To my mind the "new" Revell Spitfire mk 11a is one of the most inaccurate and the worst kit released in 1/32 for a very long time. Much better to start with a Hobby Boss mk V and alter the wing canon armament, the Revell just is all wrong.

[19squadron]

On 5/29/2020 at 8:46 AM, Aviacom said:

Hi,

l’ve always wanted to do a very early Spitfire Mk1 of 19 Sqn when they were at Duxford in 1938.

 

I have the 1/32nd Revell Spit Mk2a (New version) but can’t seem to find and aftermarket for it regarding the Watts 2 Blade Prop, Resin Cockpit, Correct Oil Cooler, Etc.

 

As it’s been an ambition of mine to do this for my lounge display cabinet, I’d like to throw all that I can at it to make it the ultimate Spitfire model.

 

Can anyone point me in the right direction please of what aftermarket items I would need for this project, and where to get them please, as I’ve spent hours searching but not come up with anything.

Thanks in advance

You might want to wait for the upcoming Eduard Spitfire Mk1 in 1/48 due out in august. There has been an enormous amount of research put into getting that kit correct with several early variations, and it may well be useful to you as a template for a 1/32 model.

[Chek]

There was a Paragon Spitfire prototype set that supplied the Watts prop and the early flat sided/flat top canopy with original curved windscreen among other parts.

It might even turn up on eBay at times.

You could for modelling purposes use a MkV cockpit, really only having to change the prominent gear retraction control to the early type and no doubt remove/alter a few other minor items.

[RLWP]

1 hour ago, 19squadron said:

 

There is a more significant problem in that the nose of the Revell kits is too long by 3mm forward of the canopy, and the fuselage is too wide and the wrong shape midway along the fuselage.

 

I keep hearing this, and I find it rather vague.

 

Is there an image that explains where the extra 3mm is ahead of the cockpit, where and how much too wide the fuselage is, and where the shape is wrong? Armed with that I could decide to accept/modify/reject the kit

 

Thanks for the stuff on 8 gun / 2 cannon spits in 19 Sqn, I shoud have paid more attention to the book

 

Richard

[wunwinglow]

1 hour ago, 19squadron said:

 

 Much better to start with a Hobby Boss mk V and alter the wing canon armament, the Revell just is all wrong.

Really??!! The Hobbyboss kit is a completely weird shape all over!  I gave mine away, and I don't do that very often....