Messerschmitt Bf 109E-5

[RLWP]

This seems to be an elusive aeroplane on the internet. From what I have found so far, it was an E-3 with cannon deleted and a downward facing camera behind the cockpit

 

Is that correct, and where might I find information on one? 

 

Richard

[Dpgsbody55]

I'm looking at William Green's book "Warplanes of the Third Reich", which still is the definitive book on German planes that at least reached prototype stage from 1933 to 1945.  Alas it's never been updated, though there was an attempt around the time the author passed away.

 

Apparently, the E-5 was a reconnaissance version of the E-4, powered by the Daimler Benz DB601Aa, with the wing guns removed and a single vertical  Rb 50/30 camera mounted in the fuselage just aft of the cockpit.  There was also an E-6 reconnaissance version of the Emil, but this was based on the E-4/N which was powered by a DB601N which differed from earlier versions in having flat pistons and a higher compression, and requiring C3 96 octane fuel.

 

My guess is that not that many were made, in terms of numbers relative to the production run  of 109's.  I haven't found any pictures to help you any further.

 

 

Cheers,

Michael

[RLWP]

I have 'Messerschmitt Bf109E' by Rudolf Hofling, he had the E-5 as the reconnaissance version of the E-3, the E-6/N having the more powerful version of the engine from the E-4. The E-5 carried the Rb 21/18 camera

 

There is a picture of an E-9 with the Rb 50/30 camera of 4.(H)/AufklGr 12 in the book. How do I decipher '4.(H)/AufklGr 12'?? I'll do some more googling...

 

Richard

 

 

[RLWP]

OK, I'm getting it. From Wikipedia:

 

Quote

Aufklärungsgruppe (H) were units initially attached to the army (Heer). They provided tactical and photo reconnaissance and were later re-designated Nahaufklärungsgruppe (NAGr), from Nah (near). Typical aircraft were Messerschmitt Bf 109s, Bf 110s and Hs 126s,

 

 

So chances are a Bf 109E-5 is going to belong to one of these

 

Richard

[RLWP]

20 minutes ago, Jennings Heilig said:

 

"Aufklärungs" means reconnaissance

 

Thank you Jennings

 

I suspect this search isn't worth the effort, I was looking for an easy modification for an Eduard Bf109E-3. I haven't found anything yet, so I'll probably build it OOB

 

Richard

[RLWP]

10 minutes ago, Jennings Heilig said:

I don't think the E-5 was widely used, if it was, in fact, used at all.  The Luftwaffe had a habit of creating designations that were never built or only resulted in prototypes.  Bf109G-9 comes to mind...

 

For a modeller, that's a double edged weapon. On the one hand, finding a photo reference is going to be hard

 

On the other, it's a challenge for someone to prove you wrong!

 

The stumbling point is finding anything on an Rb 21/18 camera, the internet is silent on that - let alone what the installation might look like

 

Richard

Edited May 17, 2020 by RLWP

[pvanroy]

Vogt (2012, p. 301) provides the following information (my translation from the original German):

 

"The Bf 109 E-5 was converted from the Bf 109 E-1 into a tactical reconnaissance aircraft at the factory, and was likewise equipped with the DB 601 A. The camera installation of the Bf 109 E-5 consisted of a Rb 21/18 camera in the position where the FuG 7a was housed in the E-1 (fuselage sections 3 and 4). The film cassette contained 60 meters of film, which was sufficient for at least 300 images. Size of the images was 18 X 18 cm. Many losses of the Bf 109 E-5 were recorded in the Jagdgeschwadern. Why this aircraft was used in these units is unknown. A nice color image from JG 26 shows an E-5 with combat damage. It concerns Werk-Nummer 3891. The camera had a rectangular sheet metal cover to protect it from oil and dust. The pilot could mechanically open a sliding cover to expose the objective to take images. 

 

Except for the camera installation, the E-5 was similar to the E-1. Only 29 aircraft were constructed, from which it can be assumed that this camera installation was unsuccessful. This also explains the use of this aircraft as a fighter by the Jagdgeschwadern. Many Bf 109 E-5 were converted / equipped to Bf 109 E-4 and E-7 standard by maintenance centers.

 

Construction numbers: Arado      W.Nr. 3854 - 3919*     29 E-5      04.1940 - 06.1940      *includes also Bf 109 E-1

 

Fuselage: In fuselage sections 3 and 4, a box was attached to the outside to protect the camera objective. A sliding cover was used to expose the objective. More details are unfortunately unknown. Otherwise unchanged from the fighter aircraft.

Undercarriage: Unchanged from fighter E-1

Tail: Unchanged from fighter E-1

Controls: Unchanged from fighter E-1

Wings: Unchanged from fighter E-1

Engine: Unchanged from fighter E-1

Radio equipment: Unchanged from fighter E-1

Weapons: Unchanged from fighter E-1

Camera: Aerial mosaic camera Rb 21/18"

 

The book also provides side and bottom line drawings of the fuselage, and an image of the instrument panel. The instrument panel was identical to the panel of the E-1, except for the addition of the camera control below the panel. The caption for the IP also notes that it is unknown on which side the lever to operate the camera cover was located.

 

Radinger & Schick (1999, p. 92) essentially state the same:

 

'Tactical reconnaissance aircraft. Similar to the E-1 with DB 601 A. For this mission the radio equipment in the fuselage was replaced with a Rb 21/18 camera. The camera operation was electric. The film cassette contained 60 meters of film, sufficient for approximately 300 photographs (18 X 18 cm).'

 

On p. 104, these authors also note the delivery of 29 Bf 109 E-5 by Arado.

 

References

 

Radinger, W & Schick, W. 1999. Messerschmitt Bf 109 A - E. Development - Testing - Production. Altglen PA: Schiffer Military History. 136 pp.

 

Vogt, H.H. 2012. Messerschmitt Bf 109. Einsatzmaschinen. Das Nachslagwerk. Zweibrücken: VDM Heinz Nickel. 384 pp.

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by pvanroy
Unfinished post!

[MikeMaben]

[LSP_Ray]

Anyone check Lynn Ritger's book? He is usually the first guy I check with on 109's.

[RLWP]

4 hours ago, LSP_Ray said:

Anyone check Lynn Ritger's book? He is usually the first guy I check with on 109's.

 

I did spend some time looking for that book, I have the equivalent Modeller's Datafile for the Merlin Spitfires

 

@MikeMaben that's looking like a possible mod, and JG77 seem to have had some involvement in the Battle of Britain making this a possible for the next group build. What's that tube thing on the port side?

 

@pvanroy Thank you for an excellent and comprehensive answer, I'd really like to see those drawings and instrument panel. The Vogt book looks to still be available at EUR 68 which is a bit out of budget for this project

 

Thanks guys

 

Richard

[RLWP]

11 hours ago, pvanroy said:

A nice color image from JG 26 shows an E-5 with combat damage. It concerns Werk-Nummer 3891.

 

 

Is this the image?:

 

 

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/JG26.III.html

 

Both titled "Messerschmitt-Bf-109E5-9.JG26-(Y6+I)-WNr-3891-France-Aug-1940"

 

This is looking like a possible build, I just need to know what is in that tantalising gap between the air intake and the yellow 6

 

Richard

Edited May 18, 2020 by RLWP

[pvanroy]

You can find two color images of the damaged Bf 109 E-5 W.Nr. 3891, Yellow 6 from 9./JG 26 referred to by Vogt (2012) here: 

 

https://me109.info/web.php?lang=en&auth=e&name=version_display&auswahl_uv=49&auswahl_hv=1&versionscategory=6

 

You can clearly see the rather clumsy looking box-like cover for the camera in the first image.

 

Another image of an unmarked Bf 109 E-5 still carrying its Stammkennzeichen can be found on p. 92 of Janowicz (2008). In the book, the aircraft is not identified as an E-5, but again the box cover for the camera is very obvious. I don't have access to a scanner at the moment, but I took a quick photograph of the image - you can download it here:

 

https://yadi.sk/i/IDbTfI0E7gNQpw

 

I did the same for the p. 301 from Vogt (2012), pertaining to the E-5, you can download it here:

 

https://yadi.sk/i/qaxdN8-a5bxikg

 

Please accept my apologies for the poor quality of the pictures. If you need better images, I'll see if I can scan them properly later.

 

When it comes to the drawing of the camera cover depicted in the old Squadron Signal volume (Beaman & Campbell 1980), as posted by Mike Maben: this is incorrect for the E-5. This type of cover was only used from the Bf 109 F-4/R4 onwards in conjunction with the installation of a Rb 75/30 or Rb 50/30 camera. Actually, if you look carefully at the image (which is redrawn from a photograph from the technical manual), you can see that it's not a 109 E, but a later version.

 

Finally, Ritger (2005) doesn't treat the 109E reconnaissance variants. 

 

References (books with relevant information for the E-5 in bold)

 

Beaman, J.R. Jr & Campbell, J.L. 1980. Messerschmitt Bf 109 in action. Part 1. Aircraft No. 44. Carrollton, TX: Squadron/Signal Publications. 50 pp.

 

Janowicz, K. 2008. Messerschmitt Bf 109 E. Monographs 38. Lublin: Kagero. 116 pp.

 

Ritger, L. 2005. The Messerschmitt Bf 109. A comprehensive guide for the modeller. Part 1: Prototype to 'E' Variants. Bedford: SAM Publications. 176 pp.

 

Vogt, H.H. 2012. Messerschmitt Bf 109. Einsatzmaschinen. Das Nachslagwerk. Zweibrücken: VDM Heinz Nickel. 384 pp.

 

[pvanroy]

Ha! You just posted the images while I was writing my reply! Yes, indeed, that's the E-5 mentioned by Vogt (2012). If you look at the links I sent, there's another image of an unmarked E-5.

[RLWP]

Excellent stuff - I think there is enough here to bluff my way into a JG26 'plane. It's unusual to find clear colour photos of the front and rear of a subject

 

I imaging there will be a JG.26 Schlageter shield on the side.

 

Thank you

 

Richard

[RLWP]

This is a later Gustaf, it made me laugh though

 

 

https://acrsa.org/hu/index.php/olvasnivalo/bf-109-g-6-r-research-project

 

Richard