Some 109E questions.

[ade rowlands]

Pottering about with the HGW boxing of the Cyber Hobby 109. Painting of the interior will be next, standard RLM02 for the time period of Summer 1940 (not doing any of the box schemes). However would the head armour be finished in 02 or 66? Also the interior framing of the canopy, looks darker in what photos of open canopies I can see, possibly RLM66, this will be the late squared off canopy. 

[Iain]

I've always gone RLM02 - but I'm no experten...

 

Others' mileage will probably vary! 

 

Iain

[LSP_Mike]

02 as well. A 66 head armor would break it up just a bit, but I think 02 is more correct.

[ade rowlands]

I thought 02 and had planned on it. But there was some nagging doubt that I’d read somewhere anything above shoulder height would be painted 66. But then that would mean the rear deck and access hatch too so I have no idea where or if I’d read that, likely imagined I had or I’m getting confused with something else. 

[pvanroy]

From 1938 onwards, cockpit should be in RLM 02, except for the instrument panel which should be in RLM 66 (prior to 1938, RLM 02 was also specified for the instrument panel). Introduction of RLM 66 for all cockpit parts visible from the outside (i.e., the entire cockpit in the 109) only occurred in November 1941.

[williamj]

Here's a colour guide  that will help..    If it's an E-4  RLM66

Bf109B thru E-3 series: Cockpit areas are RLM Green-Gray 02 

Bf109E-4 thru K series: Cockpit areas are RLM Black-Gray 66 

Me163 series: Cockpit areas are RLM Black-Gray 66 

Me262 series: Cockpit areas are RLM Black-Gray 66 

Bf110B thru E series: Cockpit areas RLM Green-Gray 02 

Bf110F thru G series: Cockpit areas RLM Black-Gray 66 

Me210/410 series: Cockpit areas are RLM Black-Gray 66 

Edited April 23, 2020 by williamj

[pvanroy]

12 minutes ago, williamj said:

Here's a colour guide  that will help..    If it's an E-4  RLM66

Bf109B thru E-3 series: Cockpit areas are RLM Green-Gray 02 

Bf109E-4 thru K series: Cockpit areas are RLM Black-Gray 66 

Me163 series: Cockpit areas are RLM Black-Gray 66 

Me262 series: Cockpit areas are RLM Black-Gray 66 

Bf110B thru E series: Cockpit areas RLM Green-Gray 02 

Bf110F thru G series: Cockpit areas RLM Black-Gray 66 

Me210/410 series: Cockpit areas are RLM Black-Gray 66 

 

Interesting... Regarding the Bf 109: where did you get the information of the entire cockpit being in RLM 66 from the E-4 onwards? Not saying it's wrong, just interested. I thought coloring of all cockpit parts visible from the outside in RLM 66 was only introduced in the November 1941 issue of directive L.Dv.521/1.

Edited April 23, 2020 by pvanroy
Rephrased for clarity

[williamj]

   66 When the E-4 went into production.Quite a number of early E's were 66 as well,this was due to which plant it was manufactured in. There are many photos of E-3's with dark 66 pits as well...Don't count on the November 41 RLM point of change. They were using 66 as early as 1938 in some plants.It really depends on checking photos of the actual 109 in question. 

 The later E-4 (many used in the BOB)..were RLM 66..You could email Jerry Cradall at Eagle Editions to clarify it for you if you need an authority on the subject.

 

This is how I painted the CH 109E-4

Edited April 23, 2020 by williamj

[ade rowlands]

I have certainly seen some photos of pilots in their cockpits with the hood open and the interior or at least what can be seen does look dark but these are oooold black and white photos so wouldn’t put my life on saying they are 02 or 66. I’m doing Hans Von Hahn’s E-4 from the Xtradecals sheet. Summer 1940. 

[Iain]

Good catch... 

 

Iain

[pvanroy]

8 hours ago, williamj said:

66 When the E-4 went into production.Quite a number of early E's were 66 as well,this was due to which plant it was manufactured in. There are many photos of E-3's with dark 66 pits as well...Don't count on the November 41 RLM point of change. They were using 66 as early as 1938 in some plants.It really depends on checking photos of the actual 109 in question. 

 The later E-4 (many used in the BOB)..were RLM 66..You could email Jerry Cradall at Eagle Editions to clarify it for you if you need an authority on the subject.

 

Many thanks for the information! I wasn't aware of that. I totally believe you, examples of Luftwaffe aircraft with a finish that in some aspect does not agree with official directives are pretty common. Do you by any chance know if 109E cockpits painted overall in RLM 66 were linked to a specific production plant, or was it standard on all aircraft regardless of producer? 

[williamj]

1 hour ago, pvanroy said:

 

Many thanks for the information! I wasn't aware of that. I totally believe you, examples of Luftwaffe aircraft with a finish that in some aspect does not agree with official directives are pretty common. Do you by any chance know if 109E cockpits painted overall in RLM 66 were linked to a specific production plant, or was it standard on all aircraft regardless of producer? 

   There were a number of 109's that were upgraded as well,there were E-3's retrofited to 4's with 02 interiors, and it's where all this wonderful confusion lies.

Yes,the point of manufacture had much to do with it as well.   there were many 109's during the BOB that were painted 74,75,76 as well as having 66 pits.and on it goes,

As one "Experte" told me a long while back...try to find a photo of the aircraft you're trying to represent and make your best guess.it is ,after all,your model

Cheers.. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by williamj

[ade rowlands]

https://www.pinterest.dk/pin/471048442271108203/

 

Thats one of two photos I've found of the aircraft I'm doing. The other doesn't show the cockpit. To me the canopy frame interior looks dark, hence my question of if I should paint the frame inside and out as RLM66 then if you look just behind the pilot and under the rear glazing it looks quite light like RLM02 in that area. I'm guessing the canopy came as a sub assembly to the factory and could be painted any colour there so could be RLM66. 

[TAG]

I copied this from a 10-year old thread on Luftwaffe colors at WW2aircraft.net, who in turn copied it from another thread elsewhere (threadception?). Apparently it comes from David Wadman, who's authored a few books on that very subject so I'd reckon it's backed by some solid research. Here you go, hope that helps!

 

---------------------------------------

 

Beware the early/late split for 02/66. As part of a discussion elsewhere about early, BoB-era Ju88 interiors, which were certainly RLM66, this contribution was made by Dave Wadman regarding Bf 109’s of the same period.
“In brief, research to date by my colleagues and I along with photographs and the information contained within copies of the relevant RLM Messerschmitt documentation in our files identifies the basic cockpit colour for the entire 109E, F-0 and the earliest F-1 series as 02 with the instrument panel in 66 although grey 41 is also mentioned in one reference to instrument panels fitted to early E-1s.
However, while it is true that some E models did feature cockpits finished entirely in 66, this was due to which particular sub-contractor (e.g. Arado, Fiesler etc) built the airframe (regardless of sub-type) and not because of any directive, theatre of operation etc.

Photographic evidence of 109’s brought down over the UK during the BoB where the interior of the cockpit is visible, clearly show that, while the sidewalls, seat etc are finished in 02, the cockpit sills and sloping area immediately behind the pilot’s shoulders was finished in a much darker colour, which was, in all probability, black-grey 66. Logic dictating that it was likely carried out for two simple reasons - to eliminate glare and to avoid compromising the dark(er) upper fuselage camouflage of the aircraft when viewed from above. Additionally and just to confuse matters further, several E variants brought down over the UK which bore 02 finished cockpits had very dark coloured floor panels suggesting the use of perhaps 66 or even black for these areas.

Interestingly, every enemy aircraft that was brought down over the UK was extensively photographed in situ, the first being four basic views of the front, rear and port and starboard sides followed by areas of interest such as crew/cockpit areas etc. In such photos of 109s where the light grey (02) interior of the cockpit is clearly visible, several have the upper areas finished in a darker colour as mentioned above with a few, as also outlined above, having dark painted (i.e. 66) cockpits. This same is true in extant photos of many of the 109Es brought down, captured etc in the Mediterranean theatre, which, while retaining a basic 02 cockpit, have all areas above the pilot’s, shoulders painted in 66 or similar dark colour.

As far as canopy framing goes, that for the early rounded style was generally finished in 02 but according to recent documentary evidence discovered by German and Dutch researchers, the heavier framed canopies were painted inside and out in 66 at the source of manufacture. The exterior framework often being left in this colour rather than being repainted to match the surrounding camouflage finish; this would then be the most likely explanation why many 109s with the heavier framed canopies are often seen with the exterior canopy framework much darker than the adjacent camouflage colour(s).

For all subsequent Bf 109F, G & K variants with the exception of a few of the very earliest Bf 109F-1s, the entire cockpit, including seat was finished in 66, the same being generally true for all variants of the Fw 190 excluding the very early V (prototype) airframes.

As a broad rule of thumb, 02 as a cockpit finish was ordered replaced by 66 in November 1941. However, if your chosen subject is to have an 02 cockpit, don't worry too much about the variety of shades of this colour available in model paints as the same inconsistencies occurred even with the real colour which led to the RLM sending out advisory notices on several occasions between mid-1941 and early 1944 quoting that no concern should be raised about the colour differences between batches of 02 citing such things as quality control etc, etc."

 

[ade rowlands]

That thread may well have been the one that put the bug in my brain about the cockpit above the shoulder being RLM66. Thanks for that. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by ade rowlands