F-4E Holloman / GAF Questions

[Dutch Man]

Hello Phantom II addicts and experts.

I'm looking for more detailed information on the planes by picture below.

Already started a F-4F Phantom II (Revell Kit) with lots of improvements, especially the cockpit and front (AMS nose job).

I know from the JG71 book by ADL, 10 F-4 Phantoms remained for training in the US. Assume they were still E or F versions?

 

Holloman F-4 

 

 

This one I don't know. But looks early Seventies by scheme.

 

 

These planes, at least one of them I want to build, if they are E versions....

 

Hoping for some answers,  they look the part to build.

 

Robert Jan 

[Tony T]

The Luftwaffe Phantoms at George AFB were F-4Fs - FY 1972 ab initio slatted wing Es with an unslotted stabilator and no TISEO. 

I believe the same machines were transferred to Holloman.

 

Tony 

[Dutch Man]

Thanks Tony for the reply. 

More questions come to date watching the nose job in paint. first one looks like ICE, but I also saw that on F-4G's.

I'm no expert, just love the looks of these F-4's. They are different, and I have an E left to convert. 

My Revell kit, it build so easy, will become JG 71 37-65, with a zapped Polly Grey from KLU 322 Squadron on the Tail fin.

ICE F-4F, until the end, dirty grey 2013 scheme.

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan

Edited April 6, 2020 by Dutch Man

[Chek]

The Luftwaffe training unit at George, the 20th TFTS did use Block 63 F-4Es with serials in the 75-0628 - 0637 range.

Perhaps these were attrition replacements.

When used by the unit, they wore GA tail codes and (from top down) black/red/yellow stripes on the fincap.

They were fitted with TISEO cameras in the wing leading edge and had standard F-4E slatted stabs.

At least one was shipped back to Europe, as 75- 0636 was photographed at Fassberg in November 2007 still in US markings with the fin stripes but with GA code removed.

It's likely they were just transferred from other USAF units based at George as some (75-0632, 0633, 0634 and 0637) have all been photographed with the blue fincaps of the 562nd TFS before the German colours were applied The 562nd was likely transitioning to the F-4G at the time of the handovers (early '80s).

In your photos above, 72-1257 became 38+47 with JG71 in a photo I have dated May 1990, and 72-1116 became 37+06 and had a career with JG71 in the 70s then with JG73 and JBG36 in the 90s.

 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Chek
added info

[thierry laurent]

Indeed, as far as I know German pilots in the US initially used F-4E and the moved to F-4F when the Phantom left the USAF inventory. 

[Dutch Man]

Thank you all for this information. Great help already.

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan

 

[Tony T]

16 hours ago, thierry laurent said:

Indeed, as far as I know German pilots in the US initially used F-4E and the moved to F-4F when the Phantom left the USAF inventory. 

 

The Luftwaffe used F-4Fs in the 1970s in the Norm 72 camo and obviously took on some Es later — don't recall the USAF buying FY 1975 Phantoms for their own use, so those must have been new and not hand-me-downs. The top and bottom photos are FY 1972 F-4Fs. 

I was unaware of any Luftwaffe F-4Es having full group A/B TISEO installed. Those may be other FMS trainers at George, which (at different times) had a more international clientele. 

 

The GA code was generic 35th TFW at George AFB from around 1972 onwards, and continued to be used by USAF and FMS F-4Es even after the Weasels went to WW. So, you can do a 35th TFW F-4E but AFAIK not in Norm 72 Luftwaffe camo. The 39th TFS Cobras were a short-lived F-4E Pave Spike unit in SEA wrap-around camo c.1982-83, and the 20th TFTS Cheetahs operated vanilla F-4Es, both with black GA codes. 

 

As alluded to earlier, I'm not sure what exactly happened after the mid 1980s. It all went gray around 1987 and then George closed, with the Luftwaffe training Phantoms relocated to Holloman. 

 

HTH

 

Tony 

[Chek]

Joe Baugher describes the 10 airframes of Block 63 F-4Es as 'new builds for West German Luftwaffe', noting they were 'returned to USAF'.

Although apart from the three airframes written off in crashes (0630/0634/0637), all ended their days back in Germany with only 0632 noted as being actually scrapped.

 

I'll attach photos of F-4E 75-0633 for the years 1977 and 1990. The earlier one in USAF SEA scheme has the 35th TFW badge on the intake, the later

one in the grey scheme has the 20th TFTS badge.

It's very possible the TISEO fairing was just what was on the Phantom production line at the time and it's an empty pod containing no optics.

Blue fincap colours were used by the 562nd TFS at George but I can't say they were the only users with that colour on a base as large as George.

Only that Wild Weasel F-105 squadrons were in the process of transitioning to the F-4G there at the time and it's possible spare F-4Es were used for interim familiarisation by the 562nd. Perhaps one of the AIRDoc books might have more information.

 

[Tony T]

Yes, okay, Group A TISEO without the Northrop ASQ-1 gear installed — basically a blunt unneeded nonaerodynamic shape manufactured as part of mass production. Note the tan and light grey paint in the phirst photo in lieu of any optical window. Oh dear, as aesthetic as slatted Greek RF-4Es. A miss on my bench, in any scale.

 

Tony