Eagle Driver Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 I have a technical question for F-4 experts here. It concerns solely the outer dimensions and shape of the plane. Not engines, radars and so on. Comparing F-4EJ Kai, to RF-4C and F-4J: - Are the vertical stabilizers same shape size? - Wing of the aircraft in plan view, is there any visible differences due to slats installed on some later sub-variants of those? - Measuring from the front edge of the canopy and going backwards, is everything from the outside equal: intakes, intake plates, outer size/shape of the fuselage? Antennae, tech caps/openings are not important. Nozzles are beyond any interest too. Thanx! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thierry laurent Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 Hi, There is no major external difference between the F-4EJ and the US F-4E except wingtip details on Kai planes. The stabs stayed the same on all versions. Some had slotted ones whereas others had non-slotted ones. Slat wings were only different at leading edge. JSDAF did not use slat wings Phantoms. The airframe main features were globally identical behind the cockpit. The only major difference is the fact the Reco versions had no sparrow missile slots. Hth Thierry Eagle Driver 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Driver Posted January 26, 2020 Author Share Posted January 26, 2020 Thanx Thierry! 9 minutes ago, thierry laurent said: Slat wings were only different at leading edge. How were they different? Were slats fixed?in general? Any differences in the canopies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thierry laurent Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 I meant all slat wings were different only at the leading edge level if you are comparing them with the hard wings. Slats were movable. AFAIK only one Israeli prototype had fixed slats. The canopies stayed the same on all versions after the F-4A. A dozen of late USAF planes got a one piece windshield. AFAIK this is the only exception regarding the clear parts. Eagle Driver 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Williams Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 The RF-4C has non-slotted stabs. The F-4EJ and F-4J have slotted stabs. On slatted wing aircraft, the inboard slats aren’t obvious when they are retracted looking down from the top as they are flush with the leading edge of the wing. From the underside, the obvious visual difference are the visible slat actuator fairings. For the outer wings, the slats are always visible in plan view since they do not fit flush with the leading edge when retracted. Eagle Driver 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Brown Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 The aft fuselage around the afterburner nozzles was a little different on the RF-4C, due to it having different engines from the other two. Here’s more info: LINK Ben thierry laurent and Eagle Driver 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Driver Posted January 27, 2020 Author Share Posted January 27, 2020 Thanx much! No, I won't be converting anything to anything. I will work on some masks for F-4J, EJ, RF. However according to Murphy's law, I have seven Js 6000 miles away, but I am not there and I have only one EJ here, with not much room to buy more. I was wondering can I use the wing and the fuselage as a starting point to do some masks for the J. That will be camouflage and letters, insignia and such. Hasegawa is what I'll be using. If I am not mistaking, there are differences in fuselage sprues in between J and EJ models with Hasegawa kits, but wings are the same. The bottom - with or without missiles is treated like a flat surface because there usually there is no need for masking on the projects that I will work on. Another thing /just out of curiosity/ I've seen some vids on the Japanese Phantoms and it seems like with the retraction of the gear, flaps are going up simultaneously. Is that an embedded feature of the Phantom or it was only on Japanese models or it is just pure coincidence /fast hands on pilot's behalf/? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Brown Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 8 hours ago, Eagle Driver said: Thanx much! No, I won't be converting anything to anything. I will work on some masks for F-4J, EJ, RF. However according to Murphy's law, I have seven Js 6000 miles away, but I am not there and I have only one EJ here, with not much room to buy more. I was wondering can I use the wing and the fuselage as a starting point to do some masks for the J. That will be camouflage and letters, insignia and such. Hasegawa is what I'll be using. If I am not mistaking, there are differences in fuselage sprues in between J and EJ models with Hasegawa kits, but wings are the same. The bottom - with or without missiles is treated like a flat surface because there usually there is no need for masking on the projects that I will work on. Another thing /just out of curiosity/ I've seen some vids on the Japanese Phantoms and it seems like with the retraction of the gear, flaps are going up simultaneously. Is that an embedded feature of the Phantom or it was only on Japanese models or it is just pure coincidence /fast hands on pilot's behalf/? I think for your project, you should be okay treating them all the same. The differences between the Hasegawa fuselages shouldn't be a problem for making insignia masks. The camouflage pattern might be an issue forward of the intakes, though. The gear & flap retraction were separate operations. Looking through the F-4 guide I have, flap retract speed was 180 knots, so they'd hit that very soon after liftoff. Ben (the F-4 nerd ) Eagle Driver 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Driver Posted January 27, 2020 Author Share Posted January 27, 2020 1 hour ago, Jennings Heilig said: If flaps up and gear up were connected it would be difficult to taxi to the ramp ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghatherly Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 HI, I would recommend that you buy each of the kits you are asking about and use them as a sizing tool, especially if you are using the data for products. The answers you have received are for real aircraft. However, having measured every kit made in 1/32 and 1/48 scale for our accessory line, I can conclusively say there are differences in the kits. These differences have little or no correlation to what the actual aircraft really are. You can always sell the kits once you are done with them online or at a swap meet if you attend those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Driver Posted January 27, 2020 Author Share Posted January 27, 2020 16 minutes ago, ghatherly said: HI, I would recommend that you buy each of the kits you are asking about and use them as a sizing tool, especially if you are using the data for products. The answers you have received are for real aircraft. However, having measured every kit made in 1/32 and 1/48 scale for our accessory line, I can conclusively say there are differences in the kits. These differences have little or no correlation to what the actual aircraft really are. You can always sell the kits once you are done with them online or at a swap meet if you attend those. Usually go that way, even keep them, but it is not an option this particular time. I count on Hase to have done their job. ghatherly 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Driver Posted January 28, 2020 Author Share Posted January 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, Jennings Heilig said: If you exited the runway and put the flaps up, you’d pancake on the taxiway. It takes a lot of power to taxi with the gear retracted. Planes that have such connection flap/gear are controlled with the gear lever for that eventuality. So no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Driver Posted January 28, 2020 Author Share Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jennings Heilig said: I’m not aware of any aircraft in history that has the flaps and the landing gear connected in any way except that both are connected to the same airplane. The operation of the two systems isn’t related. Well, thats too bad. F-16 retracts the flaps alongside with the gear when the lever is put in up position. I believe is on all versions. Some Sukhoi planes deploy flaps with the landing gear lever selected in down position. There are probably others. And there was one - I don't remember which - that with the landing gear down, deploys droops. Edited January 28, 2020 by Eagle Driver ghatherly 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony T Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 12 hours ago, Jennings Heilig said: If you exited the runway and put the flaps up, you’d pancake on the taxiway. It takes a lot of power to taxi with the gear retracted. A lot of planes use small pressure switches, e.g. to disconnect nosewheel steering but allow rudder, when pressure is off the gear. And so on. As Gary has noted, the problem with the Hasegawa 1/48 F-4s is that the kit evolved from the ca.1983 B/N, J & C/D to the ca.1985 F-4E/EJ/F/G to the ca.1987-1989 F-4J/S, and to the separate ca.1989-1990 F-4K/M and 1990s RF-4s, so they have very slightly different fuselage proportions. However, for basic insignia an EJ is probably a satisfactory starting point. Tony ghatherly and Eagle Driver 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Driver Posted January 28, 2020 Author Share Posted January 28, 2020 16 minutes ago, Jennings Heilig said: I'd need to see proof of that. I've been flying airplanes for 40 years, and I've never heard of one, military or civilian, that had any kind of connection between the flaps and the gear. There would be absolutely no point in connecting the two, period. Zero. None. It should be relatively easy to find someone who worked or flew F-16 and ask I guess. Red Dog knows a lot about F-16, he might post his opinions here too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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