What is it about decals....

[Woody V]

 

On December 22, 2019 at 11:06 AM, BarryWilliams said:

I have mostly built WW2 1/32 aircraft and I soon learnt how poor decals are to use in this scale.   Even Tamiya, who make the best kits you can get cannot produce decent decals.  They may be accurate and well printed, but that is no good in you cannot rely on them.  The smaller ones are manageable but the larger ones are guaranteed to splinter and in the odd times they don’t splinter resist conforming to details even with the strongest solutions.   At least though there are plenty of AM sets and better still masks.

 

 

When you say they "splinter" do you mean they break up when you try to get them off the paper?

If so, my best guess is that you're not waiting long enough, but more specifics would be helpful.

 

Remember what they used to say - "The wetter the better, the tighter the sweater." Or something like that.

[BarryWilliams]

On 12/31/2019 at 4:14 PM, Archer Fine Transfers said:

 

 

When you say they "splinter" do you mean they break up when you try to get them off the paper?

If so, my best guess is that you're not waiting long enough, but more specifics would be helpful.

 

Remember what they used to say - "The wetter the better, the tighter the sweater." Or something like that.

 No, when you are positioning them on the model, mostly when over/around detail.  I use a flat brush to gently adjust position, a drop of water helps and, as I said, some companies are fine and take a lot of this treatment but some just fall apart....

 

[Woody V]

22 hours ago, BarryWilliams said:

 No, when you are positioning them on the model, mostly when over/around detail.  I use a flat brush to gently adjust position, a drop of water helps and, as I said, some companies are fine and take a lot of this treatment but some just fall apart....

 

 

That's odd. My only suggestion would be to use enough decal prep like Micro Set or my favorite, Mr. Mark Setter, so that the decal slides easily into position, then take a soft brush and gently push the liquid out from under the decal and then apply a liberal amount of setting solution over the decal and let it dry.

Decals by themselves do not conform well (if at all) to raised details and need to be softened so that they stretch without breaking. That's what the two stage setting solution are for. It's simple chemistry. Decals are made with lacquer inks and setting solutions soften lacquer. 

 

Hope that helps.

[BarryWilliams]

3 minutes ago, Archer Fine Transfers said:

 

That's odd. My only suggestion would be to use enough decal prep like Micro Set or my favorite, Mr. Mark Setter, so that the decal slides easily into position, then take a soft brush and gently push the liquid out from under the decal and then apply a liberal amount of setting solution over the decal and let it dry.

Decals by themselves do not conform well (if at all) to raised details and need to be softened so that they stretch without breaking. That's what the two stage setting solution are for. It's simple chemistry. Decals are made with lacquer inks and setting solutions soften lacquer. 

 

Hope that helps.

That is pretty much what I do, even down to using Mr Mark Setter.   I then often follow up with Mr Softer when I think it needs it.

 

Thanks for your input on this.  One question.  I usually use warm water kept warm by a coffee cup warmer.   Does the temperature make decals more brittle?   I have always assumed that is was important not to have the water too hot (or too cold come to that) for that reason? 

 

[Woody V]

1 hour ago, BarryWilliams said:

That is pretty much what I do, even down to using Mr Mark Setter.   I then often follow up with Mr Softer when I think it needs it.

 

Thanks for your input on this.  One question.  I usually use warm water kept warm by a coffee cup warmer.   Does the temperature make decals more brittle?   I have always assumed that is was important not to have the water too hot (or too cold come to that) for that reason? 

 

 

The reason for the instructions suggesting using warm water is so that it soaks the paper faster, but by the time you get the decal off the paper and onto the model almost all the heat has dissipated. Heat may have some minimal affect but it's about the chemistry, ie decal solutions are solvents of varying strengths.

 

You should always use Mr. Softer or others on top of the decal before the decal has dried. As the Mr. Setter dries the area where it was pulls the decal down and the Mr. Softer on top keeps the decal soft so that it conforms to details. And don't be afraid to use liberal amounts of Mr. Softer.

 

Do you have these same problems with all brands, or just some?  

Edited January 3, 2020 by Archer Fine Transfers

[Andrea Ferrari]

If I may chime in, I always get the jitters when I have to apply decals done by Trumpeter, especially in 1/24. Not only their research is rather atrocious (WWII Luftwaffe are usually wrong - wrong sizes, wrong proportions, wrong colors, stencils wrong spelling etc), but very often their large scale decals disintegrate in a myriad of splinters when being soaked or fold upon themselves when being applied. This has happened to me on a number of occasions with brand new kits, and it can really spoil a nicely built and painted model. I saw no difference when using warm water as suggested by several modelers, but found the perfect solution by airbrushing a thin coat of water-based acrylic transparent gloss coat on the decal sheet and letting it dry for a day before using it. After this process one has to cut very close to the decal itself using a sharp scalpel before soaking, but I have had no more problems ever applying my decals after this treatment, and decals are still extremely responsive to setting solutions. 

[Woody V]

13 hours ago, Andrea Ferrari said:

.....or fold upon themselves when being applied.

 

Although it may appear to be a disaster, this is actually quite simple to rectify. Decals LOVE water and that's why they fold under themselves. To fix this mess simply add a lot of water where the fold is and use a pointed brush or a cocktail stick to pull the folded under part out. Don't wait, do it immediately otherwise the decal will crease. You have to get in there with water before the adhesive gets a grip. Don't worry if the decal is out of position, fix the fold first. If the decal got stuck in place, just work water under it and it will loosen its grip.Remember that they only fold under, not over.

 

It may seem like overkill, but invest in a quality #3 pointed sable brush, technically called a "round" for applying decals, especially tiny ones. Money well spent. 

[MikeMaben]

For me it helps if they're slippery-er so I add a teensy drop of

dishsoap to the water to break the surface tension.

 

 

[Andrea Ferrari]

8 hours ago, Archer Fine Transfers said:

 

Although it may appear to be a disaster, this is actually quite simple to rectify. Decals LOVE water and that's why they fold under themselves. To fix this mess simply add a lot of water where the fold is and use a pointed brush or a cocktail stick to pull the folded under part out. Don't wait, do it immediately otherwise the decal will crease. You have to get in there with water before the adhesive gets a grip. Don't worry if the decal is out of position, fix the fold first. If the decal got stuck in place, just work water under it and it will loosen its grip.Remember that they only fold under, not over.

 

It may seem like overkill, but invest in a quality #3 pointed sable brush, technically called a "round" for applying decals, especially tiny ones. Money well spent. 

Have always been able to save the day doing what you say, but somehow the trick doesn't seem to work with Trumpeter decals! I don't think I'm alone in this as I've been hearing the same from quite a few people - once Trumpeter decals have folded, it's game over. Maybe their adhesive is too strong, or the decals too thin, or a combination of both? I have tried everything from toothpicks to scalpel blades tips - not to mention fine-point brushes, obviously - but it seems impossible to rectify the decal corner once it's folded. However, adding a clear coat on top of the decal sheet before committing seems to have solved that, as I said.

[Palm-tree]

On 12/23/2019 at 12:23 AM, Jennings Heilig said:

You mean “dekkuls”? 
 

as opposed to “DEE-cals”

or “dickulls” if you are from Ozz.

[Tony T]

Yes, you're right Jennings. I used to draw the clear layer in purple as the top layer but it wasn't printed last.

 

Tony 

[Woody V]

On 1/4/2020 at 7:25 PM, Jennings Heilig said:

 

If you’re talking about silkscreened decals, the first thing that goes down is the clear carrier film.  Special silkscreen inks (very different from offset printing inks) are then layered on top of that.  Some printers will then add another thin clear coat on top of the whole thing.  The inks as well as the clear coat are (with most high quality decal printers) quite flexible, and shouldn’t crack or splinter when you bend them.  

 

Clear over and under?

I'm relatively new to this whole decal thing and curious as to under what circumstances this would be done.

[Woody V]

On 1/5/2020 at 12:16 AM, Andrea Ferrari said:

Have always been able to save the day doing what you say, but somehow the trick doesn't seem to work with Trumpeter decals! 

 

Well there's your problem - Trumpeter decals! I've never used them because the colors and registration are horrible. But just for a test I tried one to see if I could unfold it. After waiting what seemed like hours for it to come off the backing I tried to get it to fold and it broke into several pieces. 

[Andrea Ferrari]

On 1/6/2020 at 6:05 PM, Archer Fine Transfers said:

 

Well there's your problem - Trumpeter decals! I've never used them because the colors and registration are horrible. But just for a test I tried one to see if I could unfold it. After waiting what seemed like hours for it to come off the backing I tried to get it to fold and it broke into several pieces. 

Exactly . But since there's very little or no aftermarket decals for 1/24 Luftwaffe subjects being offered currently, one has to do with a little ingenuity - I usually end up with a mix of kit decals (or parts of them!), old spares from Eagle Strike sets (beautiful!), masking and even some delicate hand painting occasionally...