Curtiss F6C Floatplane Questions

[Mark_C]

Hello,

 

I've become interested in the Curtiss F6C-1 and -3 floatplanes from Lukgraph.  I'm particularly interested in this one, which, according to the caption,participated in the 1926 Schneider Trophy race:

 

 

The caption states: "The U.S. Navy Schneider Cup Team on 19 August 1926 in front of the Curtiss F6C-1 Hawk racing plane. The pilot was Lt. William G. Tomlinson (later RAdm, 2nd from left)."

 

Yet this photo, which shows what appears to be the same plane (same number on tail, as far as I can determine), claims this an F6C-3 (even though hand annotations indicate it might be a -2):

 

 

Various other sources claim this plane is a -3 or a -2 as well, and I have no way of knowing who's accurate here.  I'd like to buy the correct kit from Lukgraph.  Is it a -1 or a -3?

 

Can anyone help out here?  I'm not even sure there are any visible differences between the two types, and I believe very few were produced, anyway.

 

Thanks for any help in this area.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Mark_C

[Tnarg]

Captions are only as good as the knowledge of the person who wrote them. I have seen an obvious Boeing F4B-4 cockpit labeled as a Curtiss P6E. People mean well, but often we get it dead wrong. I couldn't say what mark the plane is, but have some documentary evidence that says the plane was a -3.

 

"The Speed Seekers" says that "standard service Hawk substituted after cracked up R3C-3 race number 2 then assigned". The table calls out Curiss F6C-3 Hawk A-7128. "The Schneider Trophy Contest" by Derek N James confirms that A-7128 a standard F6C-3 from the "Red Ripper" squadron replaced the R3C-3, which was crashed by Tomlinson.

 

Tnarg

[LukGraph]

Hello
If I could help it, then Curtiss F6C-1 is closer to the one in the top picture. This can be deduced from the details of the floats (walkway with ballast plugs). We took exactly the one from second picture and called it F6C-1 (as it was called in other sources).
There is a link with kitset photos:

https://lukgraph.pl/en_GB/p/Curtiss-F6C-1-Float/105

greetings
Lucas

 

[Mark_C]

Thank you to everyone, and I'd like to respond if I may:

 

Tnarg, your comment is very interesting, because it implies that the plane is indeed a -3.  However, it seems to have had the serial #A-7128, whilst the plane in the pictures above is marked A-6970.  I don't think they would have changed the serial, would they?

 

And Lucas, thank you for your beautiful kits.  They're spectacular.  Just to add to confusion, look at this image!

 

 

Whoever annotated it has hedged his bets - it could be a -1, a -2, or a -3!  But NASM claims A-6970 is definitely a -3.  Sigh.

 

 

 

[Stefano]

Quote

And Lucas, thank you for your beautiful kits.  They're spectacular. 

Yes indeed! 

 

Stefano

[Tnarg]

My comment came from the Schneider Trophy reference books I quoted above. I don't know that the -1 in the photos was more than a "practice plane" or what it was used for. The books stated that the original aircraft was an R3C-3 with floats (A-7054), but Tomlinson wrecked that one (he cartwheeled it and it sank, but he survived) and they had pulled a stock F6C-3 from a regular squadron (Red Rippers) to use as a replacement racer. Two more of the US pilots were killed in wrecks, so it was a pretty awful race for the USA. They were up against the Macchi MC--39s, which showed them the future of the contest. I found the serial numbers in those references.

 

Thank you to Lucas and team for the chance to place this one next to some of the other Schneider Race Planes.

 

Tnarg

[Tnarg]

Just found another photo of the Curtiss F6C-3 that flew in the 1926 Schneider race. "Curtiss Navy Hawks in Action" (Squadron), page 14 shows Red/White/Blue tail stripes with the number A-7128 just under the rudder projection at the top of the tail. The right side of the fuselage has a large "US NAVY" under the tail and "N.A.S. ANACOSTIA" in smaller letters on the fuselage side. There is a large "2" painted over the N.A.S. ANACOSTIA, right behind the cockpit. There is something under the fuselage running from the rear of the radiator to the rear of the lower wing and it appears as if it could be a fairing for reducing drag? No clue.... I am guessing that the wings had standard US insignia and colors (yellow wings and aluminum fuselage), but the angle of the photo does not show that.

 

Tnarg

[Mark_C]

1 hour ago, Tnarg said:

Just found another photo of the Curtiss F6C-3 that flew in the 1926 Schneider race. "Curtiss Navy Hawks in Action" (Squadron), page 14 shows Red/White/Blue tail stripes with the number A-7128 just under the rudder projection at the top of the tail. The right side of the fuselage has a large "US NAVY" under the tail and "N.A.S. ANACOSTIA" in smaller letters on the fuselage side. There is a large "2" painted over the N.A.S. ANACOSTIA, right behind the cockpit. There is something under the fuselage running from the rear of the radiator to the rear of the lower wing and it appears as if it could be a fairing for reducing drag? No clue.... I am guessing that the wings had standard US insignia and colors (yellow wings and aluminum fuselage), but the angle of the photo does not show that.

 

Tnarg

 

This is really interesting information!  It seems to completely contradict the caption on my first pic, above, which shows Lt. William Tomlinson as piloting the F6C-1.

 

However, I trawled google with his name, and found this:

 

 

"The 1926 [Schneider Tropy] race, held on November 13th at Norfolk, VA, was entered by Tomlinson and one other Navy pilot. They won second and fourth places. The aircraft Tomlinson was supposed to fly (a Curtiss R3C, below) was destroyed in an accident a day before the race. The New York TImes of November 13th reported the previous day's trial, "... almost cost the life of its pilot, Lieutenant William Gosnell Tomlinson, who escaped without injury in a manner little short of miraculous. His plane turned a side somersault when one of its pontoons hit a wave in landing, and sank with its pilot squeezed into its tiny cockpit. Clad in heavy flying togs and strapped in his seat, Lieutenant Tomlinson was submerged in the cold waters of Willoughby Bay for some seconds." Spectators at the trial, "... including many notables in the realm of aviation, gasped and shuddered. Then they saw him crawl out o f the water to the top of one of the upturned pontoons of the capsized plane and wave his hand in reassurance to those ashore. Launches and seaplanes sped to his rescue."

The following day, instead of his wrecked race plane, Tomlinson qualified and flew a stock Curtiss F6C-1 Hawk. Tomlinson was the fourth (last) place contestant at one hour, 35 minutes and 16.72 seconds, averaging 136.96 MPH. This was slow when compared to the 246 MPH averaged by the winner, Mario de Bernardi of Italy, but it was a good average speed for the Curtiss he flew. Statistics for the race, including lap speeds by contestants, was covered by the New York TImes of November 14th."

 

https://dmairfield.com/people/tomlinson_wg/index.html

 

Unfortunately, I am unable to locate the race statistics for that date in the NYT, so I can't verify the passage. 

 

All I can say with any confidence is that the first picture I posted does appear to be an "official" photo of some kind, and the pilot does appear to be Tomlinson - even though I think he is misidentified in the picture.  I think Tomlinson is the man on the extreme right.  Here is a portrait of him later in life for comparison:

 

 

Anyway, there is one source that states it was an F6C-3, with a specific serial number and other markings, and another which states it was a "stock" (whatever that may mean) F6C-1.  I don't know how to weigh the validity of each source; further, I am somewhat uneasy about the thought of a plane which had been built in 1925 (as per the other photos), being used over a year later in a race.  I would have thought they would prefer to use a much newer, less stressed and worn plane? 

 

 

 

 

Addendum:

 

I just this:

 

http://www.hydroretro.net/race.php?annee=1926

 

Interestingly, it states Tomlinson flew an F6C-1 "Hawk."  I also discovered via another website that:

 

"The American public was looking forward to claiming the trophy permanently in 1926.

But the U.S. government was not prepared to support the rapidly escalating costs of any further development work, leaving the Americans with no new aircraft for 1926."

 

https://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/the-schneider-trophy-22580584/?page=2

 

This might explain why Tomlinson would fly a relatively "old" plane in 1926.

 

Edited December 22, 2019 by Mark_C

[Dana Bell]

The identity crisis may be solved by the books United States Navy Aircraft Since 1911 by Swanborough and Bowers (1990 edition) and Curtiss Aircraft; 1907-1947 by Bowers.  The books explain that A-6970 was built as an F6C-1 and subsequently modified (along with A-6972) as an F6C-3 with strengthened landing gear and fuselage and provisions for an arrester hook.  Both the -1 and -3 versions could be equipped with pontoons, so the aircraft's designation seems to depend on the date of the photo -- and nothing tells us the when the modifications took place.

 

Sounds like this may matter only on a contest form or a name plate for a base.  Sounds like this one is safe either way...

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana 

[Mark_C]

Thank you VERY much, Dana!  That certainly seems to answer the questions raised by these photos.

 

And I'd also like to thank everyone for their very helpful comments and research.  This, to me, is one of the really fun parts of the hobby - trying to get at little details, solving small mysteries.

 

 

[RLWP]

6 minutes ago, Mark_C said:

And I'd also like to thank everyone for their very helpful comments and research.  This, to me, is one of the really fun parts of the hobby - trying to get at little details, solving small mysteries.

 

 

 

It is one of the delights of this forum too, being introduced to an unusual subject by inquisitive and helpful people

 

Richard