P-61 nose

[Jean-Michel]

Hi from France,

thanks for accepting me on LSP.

 

I have few questions about P-61 nose. I should say, the mystery of the nose.

 

Most online infos, books, make the difference between P61A nose and P61B nose, with only one difference noted : the addition of a fuselage section (8 inches) aft the radome. That's OK.
But, I'm not blind, that's not the only difference, the radome is much longer too ! Maybe 20 inches.

Relish Models produces a resin nose, but on most kits, modellers put a lot of aftermarket (wheels, inner, outer details, seat belts, turrets…) but they forget to correct the most visible mistake of the kit (for a P61B) : the long nose !

I see no infos on "the complete history and combat record" by Garry R. Pape, no infos on the Squadron Signal "in action", nothing on the Osprey book. They all just note the addition of 8 feet on fuselage, and one tells that it gives the impression the nose is longer that it is in reality !!!

The Pape's book, page 75, shows a picture of P-61-B15 "Little Audrey", and the profile picture is exactly at 1/32 scale. You can put the fuselage on it, it fits, but the A nose is clearly too shorter. About 1 cm at the kit's scale.

 

Can someone tell me please the lenght of the Relish Model nose at 1/32?

Does someone has references on this nose?

 

Thanks.

[Out2gtcha]

Welcome to LSP Jean-Michel!  Im not really a SME on the P-61, but I know we have some members who are who will be along and can be of assistance. 

 

[Troy Molitor]

Welcome aboard Jean-Michel.   I’m sure you will have several reply’s soon.  Great topic for discussion too.  

[Dana Bell]

Hi Jean-Michel,

 

Parts of the P-61A radar were not easily accessible - crews needed to remove nearly the entire system to gain access to parts that frequently broke down.  The extended nose on the P-61B moved those parts forward where they could be repaired or replaced quickly, without a major overhaul.

 

That said, I've no figures in changes in the length of the nose, though others certainly will...

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

[Tony T]

 

I believe there's also a difference in materials used. The SCR-720 radar set spun through 360°, tilting up or down a bit on command, such that in the fwd hemisphere of its scan it "saw" through painted-over plastic. 

I believe the shorter nose of the A was of hybrid construction (metal and radar transparent plastic) with a resulting L-shaped join line in the radome, whereas the longer, bigger radome on the B was made uniformly from fibreglass or perspex.

Or was it the other way around ? 

 

Fascinating subject. I've long been tempted by the Hobby Boss P-61B, and still am interested in doing a big Little Audrey. Made the smaller Monogram edition of Time's a Wastin' nearly forty years ago and it was a hoot. 

 

Where's Black Widow aficionado Derek Bradshaw when you need him ?! 

 

Tony 

[Jean-Michel]

Thx for your answer.

 

I continue my researches.

 

I found diverses types of nose and their paint. I just started a complete inventory of all P61 built. I have pictures for 10% of them for the moment...

 

Some YP61 had a complete transparent radome monted on a frame. You see clearly the radar in it !

Many P61A had a translucent paint coated "Inside" the radome (source : Squadron Signal In action). You see the silhouette of the radar Inside. The radome looks grey or cream, his lower part is generaly painted in a more dense paint (white, grey) and the frame that's support the radome has the color of the body of the aricrat (Olive/Neutral Grey or Black).

 

Most of P61 have a complete black painted nose, with a visible frame on the aft and under part of the nose (where the radar could'nt "see"). This is the model of nose we have in the Hobby Boss kit (witch is too thick).

 

I found P61A with short noses, smoothed, without the frame ; the nose is in one part. The smoothed nose seems to come with the A10 series. On many noses, the paint cracks in front part in circular pattern, looking like a structural panel, but I dont think it's a panel.

 

And, the long nose  for the P61B. In one part, with an access panel on each side on aft. A picture taken from above shows a third access panel on top.

I found a P61B (s/n 43-8275) that seems to have a short nose...

 

Still working on it.

[misha71]

Hi Jean-michel

it is great to have p61 discussion here.

How i remember Derek.B is p61 expert.

 

[Night Fighter]

The P61 radome was made of fiberglass.  It was never made of plexiglass.  In its original form the dome is somewhat transparent.  To prevent ground interference, the lower part of the dome was painted with a lead base paint.  The rest was painted in normal aircraft lacquer paint.  The nose length was for two reasons. One to accommodate the new radar system, the other for ease of maintenance, note the added access doors on the rear portion of the dome area.

To get the proper length of the nose, you are going to have to do a little math.  Find a profile of a P61B and measure something you see that you have a corresponding view of on your model.  Create a ratio to determine the multiplication factor.  Once you know what that is, measure the length of the radome and multiply it by the factor you came up with and this should give you a decent measurement for your model.

[Jean-Michel]

thx, but most profile are false… check pictures and profiles, there are maybe 3 or types of noses, and profiles draw only fiberglass or solid nose. 

[Jean-Michel]

On p-61A1 s/n 42-5516, the nose should be short with fiberglass, but it looks longer.

https://www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/p-61/42-5516/p61-parked.html

 

between P61-A5 and A10, the nose seems to be short, but on A10 there are no visible structure lines, the nose is smoothed.

 

On this famous B2, the nose is long and smoothed :

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/usa/aircrafts-2-3/p-61/p-61-nightfighter-nose-art-coopers-snooper/

 

compare with this one (P-61 A10) :

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/426th_Night_Fighter_Squadron_Northrop_P-61A-10-NO_Black_Widow_42-5619.jpg

 

Look on s/n 42-39450 : long nose.

http://www.forgottenprops.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/p-61_black_widow.html

 

So, do to my opinion, A serie has short nose, with or whithout fiberglass part, some noses are painted white, some translucide, some black, some with white or lead down part, some with metallic frame or not.

On B series, fuselage is longer on front part and some have short radome (no frame, all painted with fuselage color), other have longer fuselage AND longer nose.

Some late nose have another shape, not symetrical on upper and lower part (maybe C series?)

 

And some planes were retrofited with old noses, nose and fuselage have different color, and some have the nose of another aircraft, with his art nose, full or partially.

 

[D.B. Andrus]

Welcome Jean-Michel!

 

Cheers,

D.B.

[Jean-Michel]

hi!