RAF WW2 camouflage. Hard edge or soft edge?

[Fred Jack]

12 hours ago, LDSmodeller said:

 

 I don't know, these Spitfires at the Castle Bromwich factory, their fuselage camouflage applications

look pretty identical to me?

 

Spitfires Castle Bromwich

 

 

Whether odd or even serial numbers determined whether the paint outside the masks were painted light or dark. Spits were always factory or repair depot painted, whereas Hurricanes were repaired and repainted by the Squadron mechanics. Also dirt had a lot to do with aircraft of any Squadron looking different in a photo, even if they all were painted the same.

[LSP_Ron]

5 hours ago, Juggernut said:

I remember Edgar saying that the spitfire was painted using masks but for the life of me, I cannot find the thread or that it was on LSP for that matter.... so FWIW...the spitfire I've read had A and B schemes which were the same pattern but using the opposite colors...dark earth and dark green swapped.

 

I remember this as well,  I also recall a black and white picture of the masks being used but can't find it.

[LSP_Ron]

It was a picture like this P-40 wing but I can't find it now.  Does anyone remember this picture also?

 

[LDSmodeller]

7 hours ago, Jennings Heilig said:

 

Look again

 

I did , answer is no different

[MikeC]

3 hours ago, Fred Jack said:

Whether odd or even serial numbers determined whether the paint outside the masks were painted light or dark...

 

I'm not sure what you're saying here.  Odd/even serial number determined A or B scheme, one was the mirror image of the other.  However, this system was discontinued at a relatively early point, and all aircraft of a particular type painted to one pattern.  Hence, long line-ups of identically-painted Spitfires or whatever.

[TAG]

It could be both, even on the same aircraft. Check out the hard-edged camo on the rudder and the very diffused soft edge on the tailplane/elevator of this Spit. Also note the completely different shades of Ocean Gray, much darker on the tailplane itself as opposed to the lighter shade seen on the elevator and rudder.

As always, there are no absolutes when it comes to markings, you can find an exception to every hard and fast "rule" that's out there. Just look for the best, crispiest period reference photos you can, study them closely (which I find to be a hobby in and of itself) and try to recreate that on your model.

[nmayhew]

A and B are not just swapping the colours over, it is the pattern itself mirrored / flipped; not sure if i am describing that clearly but hopefully people know what I mean, and i think this is realised by most already.

The serial number correlation - at least for early Spits - is certainly what i would use in the absence of any photographic evidence and so in that respect I think it is indeed very much a 'rule of thumb'.

My point was only to say that once you start looking you will find quite a few exceptions.

 

The above pic is very cool btw.

 

 

 

[dennismcc]

More info on A and B schemes here

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/74729-ab-camouflage-scheme-and-serial-question/

The important bit is:

Ted Hooton wrote quite a complete guide to Spitfire camouflage 1938-1940 in SAM many years ago, [Nov 82]. Ted give many serial batches and states the rule most commomly that even number serials had the A scheme and odd numbers had the B scheme. However he lists about 10 batches werre the rule was reversed, this applied to Supermarine built aircraft .

For castle Bromwich built aircraft Mr Hooton points out several detail differences in the pattern and states that for some unknown reason the A/B scheme serial rule alternated between batches.

The application of the A/B scheme ended after serial number X4912 for Supermarine aircraft and Serial number P7810 for Castle Bromwich bulit aircraft, after which the A scheme was applied to all. Mr Hooton states that this occured in December 1940.

With all these alternations of A/B scheme it would be best to obtain a clear photograph of the Spitfire you wish to model before committing to paint.

Andrew

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

[TimHepplestone]

8 hours ago, TAG said:

It could be both, even on the same aircraft. Check out the hard-edged camo on the rudder and the very diffused soft edge on the tailplane/elevator of this Spit. Also note the completely different shades of Ocean Gray, much darker on the tailplane itself as opposed to the lighter shade seen on the elevator and rudder.

As always, there are no absolutes when it comes to markings, you can find an exception to every hard and fast "rule" that's out there. Just look for the best, crispiest period reference photos you can, study them closely (which I find to be a hobby in and of itself) and try to recreate that on your model.

That’s a great picture. I guess it confirms the old adage of check your references.

[John1]

8 hours ago, TAG said:

It could be both, even on the same aircraft. Check out the hard-edged camo on the rudder and the very diffused soft edge on the tailplane/elevator of this Spit. Also note the completely different shades of Ocean Gray, much darker on the tailplane itself as opposed to the lighter shade seen on the elevator and rudder.

As always, there are no absolutes when it comes to markings, you can find an exception to every hard and fast "rule" that's out there. Just look for the best, crispiest period reference photos you can, study them closely (which I find to be a hobby in and of itself) and try to recreate that on your model.

Very cool picture.  I wonder if the Brits followed German practice and had some components like flight control surfaces provided by off-site subcontractors who might have had different finishing standards than the main factory.  Either that or that rudder is a field repair job.   If so, wonder if the paint used might be the underside color?  If definitely appears to be  a different tone than the elevator's color.   Or maybe it's just the lighting.  Or maybe none of the above...  

 

Regarding the picture on page one of this thread of the field of Spitfires, only difference I saw in all those paint schemes was on the rudders, which again makes me wonder if the above manufacturing process was being followed.  

 

What a fun subject. Almost as much fun as whether P-51 wings were puttied and what's the correct shade of RLM83.   Sure to generate lots of interesting posts. 

Edited September 14, 2019 by John1

[cbk57]

I am currently working on the Tamiya Mk I, I used masks for the camouflage I personally prefer a crisp consistent look for RAF style camo.  I can't say it is right, but in scale it is hard to get the look the way I want without a good mask.  In 1/32 I think I might try for an effect that produces a softer edge, maybe put the mask on a buffer so it is not flat on the model surface.  However I still would mask.  My freehand gets too inconsistent and does not look right.

 

On another note, I followed Tamiya's recommended paint mix of 5 parts OD to 1 part dark green and found it far too OD.  I went back over it this morning with some faded green oil paint using dot technique to shift the tone a bit from olive.  

 

 

[TimHepplestone]

On 9/13/2019 at 5:11 AM, MikeMaben said:

The Brits have some info ...   https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/29585-british-camo-rubber-masks/

 

 

They’re some really interesting  posts on this forum. Frankly, when I started this thread it was with a mosquito in mind and not a Spit, and in the vain hope that there was a standard followed by the RAF during WW2 . Obviously this is not the case. Just another thing that make this hobby so fascinating 

[R Palimaka]

I

On 9/14/2019 at 12:14 PM, Jennings Heilig said:

 99.9% of the photos that people claim "prove" that there was a hard edge don't prove that at all.  What they show, if you examine high resolution images, is exactly what Edgar's documentation showed - a *very* tight, but still hand sprayed, overlap in the colors.

 

I agree with Jennings, the edges of the colours are exactly that; tight but feathered. I looked at dozens of close-up photos of Spitfires last night (thanks guys, even though I had others things I should have been doing... :-) ) Masks would create hard edges. And if you look at the Castle Bromwich photo, you will see that the patterns are uniform but not identical. There are variations in the radii of curves, width of bands of colour, etc. It only takes a few minutes to notice the differences. 

 

Sometimes you do see hard-edged patterns in photos, but they appear to be repaints over the factory finish, such as was done during the change from Temperate Land Scheme to the greys and greens of the Day Fighter Scheme. As always, if you want to be totally accurate, look at photos of your subject. I think a soft edged pattern looks best in the larger scales...for me, achieving that on a model is another thing. 

 

One example. Wing Leader Hugh Godefroy's Spitfire IX, in relatively good shape. 

 

 

Richard

Edited September 15, 2019 by R Palimaka

[Pete Fleischmann]

On 9/12/2019 at 11:10 PM, LDSmodeller said:

 

 I don't know, these Spitfires at the Castle Bromwich factory, their fuselage camouflage applications

look pretty identical to me?

 

Spitfires Castle Bromwich

 

 

 

Boom.

 

love this.

 

cheers

 

Pete

[nmayhew]

On 9/15/2019 at 12:37 AM, Pete Fleischmann said:

 

Boom.

 

love this.

 

cheers

 

Pete

 

I am confused by you "boom"-ing.

What does that mean in the context of your quoting LDSModeller's post?

 

Are you saying they are all identical?

They are not.