F-51's used by 2 Sqdn SAAF in Korea

[rjones726]

Inspired by John and several other builds I have seen lately of post war F-51's, I pulled a Tamiya P-51 D/K out of the stash and decided to build a SAAF 2 squadron F-51 -specifically "Miss Marunouchi". I contacted John to see if I could purchase the SAAF markings from his AIMS decal set and he graciously donated them-Thanks again John!!!  

     From my research it appears many (not all) of the aircraft in this squadron came from ANG units including North and South Dakota, Utah and Texas. Some may have been pulled from reserves left over from WWII. My question for those more knowledgable is this: Would ANG aircraft still have puttied (smooth) wings and cockpit in interior green? I know some went through a depot refurbishment where the wings were (sometimes) stripped and cockpits painted black. None of the photos of SAAF F-51's I have seen clearly show the cockpit and I am unable to determine if the wings are smooth or not. I suspect that the answer will be that all of these combinations are possible and I'm good with that. My goal is not 100% accuracy because I don't really want to get bogged down in research (been there-done that) but to end up with a reasonably accurate representation of a bomb truck.

 Thanks,

Rob

[Finn]

Here are some SAAF F-51s, they are on the left (note the props, the one in the back has the rounded tips) while USAF Mustangs are on the right:

 

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/1ae70e40c91ad60c.html

 

Jari

[rjones726]

47 minutes ago, Finn said:

Here are some SAAF F-51s, they are on the left (note the props, the one in the back has the rounded tips) while USAF Mustangs are on the right:

 

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/1ae70e40c91ad60c.html

 

Jari

Nice photo Jari. I hadn't seen this one. The wing on the foremost aircraft certainly looks smooth to me. 

 

v/r,

Rob

[Finn]

Here is a look at the 3 from the post above from the other side:

 

 

note the under wing staining.

 

Jari

[MikeMaben]

 

Hi Rob, I've read that the SAAF 51s were NMF which means they were stripped but not repainted.

I also read that they didn't worry about puttying the wings since their mission was only ground attack.

Have fun.

[Cheetah11]

 

Hi Rob

 

I will be following your build with interest as I am planning a similar build in the future. The initial 2 Sqn aircraft came from storage in Japan ( previously used in the Pacific theater), some still with the black wing stripes. My modeling friend Joe has build and researched the subject as his father served in Korea as an aircraft fitter. He recalls that him and his father had many arguments as the usual references were contradictory to what his father remembers from Korea, such as the fact that the aircraft were repainted in silver at their first service and  the cockpit colors were in black or green or "yellow".

 

If you PM me I can put you in touch with Joe. I am sure he will be able to answer some questions you have. (despite my best efforts he only builds 1/48)

 

Nick

[rjones726]

4 hours ago, Cheetah11 said:

 

Hi Rob

 

I will be following your build with interest as I am planning a similar build in the future. The initial 2 Sqn aircraft came from storage in Japan ( previously used in the Pacific theater), some still with the black wing stripes. My modeling friend Joe has build and researched the subject as his father served in Korea as an aircraft fitter. He recalls that him and his father had many arguments as the usual references were contradictory to what his father remembers from Korea, such as the fact that the aircraft were repainted in silver at their first service and  the cockpit colors were in black or green or "yellow".

 

If you PM me I can put you in touch with Joe. I am sure he will be able to answer some questions you have. (despite my best efforts he only builds 1/48)

 

Nick

Thanks for your comments Nick,

They raise some interesting questions. Did the aircraft stored in Japan go through any type of depot upgrade/maintenance between the end of WWII and the time they were issued for Korea? If not they most likely had green cockpits and smooth wings. Same question for the ANG aircraft-what was done to them before/during the time they were issued for use by the Guard and reissued to the SAAF. As I said before- I'm sure the answer is...it depends  The aircraft I want to model appears to have come from the states (I'm guessing an ANG unit as I found some info showing it was involved in an accident in Alabama between '45 and '50). As I said in my original post while I enjoy the research I don't want to let it keep me from building so I need to just decide on a finish and go for it. Film at 11...

v/r,

Rob

[John1]

10 hours ago, rjones726 said:

Thanks for your comments Nick,

They raise some interesting questions. Did the aircraft stored in Japan go through any type of depot upgrade/maintenance between the end of WWII and the time they were issued for Korea? If not they most likely had green cockpits and smooth wings. Same question for the ANG aircraft-what was done to them before/during the time they were issued for use by the Guard and reissued to the SAAF. As I said before- I'm sure the answer is...it depends  The aircraft I want to model appears to have come from the states (I'm guessing an ANG unit as I found some info showing it was involved in an accident in Alabama between '45 and '50). As I said in my original post while I enjoy the research I don't want to let it keep me from building so I need to just decide on a finish and go for it. Film at 11...

v/r,

Rob

There are a couple of good threads that discuss this buried in this forum.  From what I gathered, a good number of ANG Mustangs went through a refurb program where the wings got stripped, the cockpit repainted, some newer radios added and the fuselage radiator vents added.   I though someone said that these birds could be identified because the tail serial number was reapplied in a different font.    

 

Just guessing but I’d speculate that Mustangs that came out of storage in Japan would have escaped stateside refurb programs and would pretty much be WW2 vintage.  

 

Of course during the war, many Mustangs had new radios retrofitted.   Lastly, even units that started the war with a particular configuration for their Mustangs soon had different variations present as more and more aircraft were pulled from various sources to make up for the horrific losses these units suffered.    

 

Bottom line - build it as you see fit.   You’ll never be proven wrong!

[rjones726]

59 minutes ago, John1 said:

There are a couple of good threads that discuss this buried in this forum.  From what I gathered, a good number of ANG Mustangs went through a refurb program where the wings got stripped, the cockpit repainted, some newer radios added and the fuselage radiator vents added.   I though someone said that these birds could be identified because the tail serial number was reapplied in a different font.    

 

Just guessing but I’d speculate that Mustangs that came out of storage in Japan would have escaped stateside refurb programs and would pretty much be WW2 vintage.  

 

Of course during the war, many Mustangs had new radios retrofitted.   Lastly, even units that started the war with a particular configuration for their Mustangs soon had different variations present as more and more aircraft were pulled from various sources to make up for the horrific losses these units suffered.    

 

Bottom line - build it as you see fit.   You’ll never be proven wrong!

I've pretty much decided to build it as an ANG Mustang that has been through "refurb" with stripped wings and black cockpit. The goal is a worn dirty "bomb truck" so I can have fun weathering to my hearts content. I'm horrible at photography but I'll get a WIP up soon. If nothing else it'll be good for a few laughs

[MikeMaben]

Maybe some help ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by MikeMaben

[Cheetah11]

 

Hi Rob

 

2 Sqn operated 95 F-51's of which 74 were lost to accidents and enemy ground fire ( including one shot down by a Marine Corsair). Although the initial lot of aircraft came from Japan, as the war progresses I guess aircraft from other units such as the ANG were used to make up for the attrition. This would account for the different finishes. 

 

I have been interested in 2 Sqn history during the Korean War for a long time but keep on finding interesting bits of information from two of my modeling friends whose fathers served with the squadron in Korea. One interesting story was that the American units would from time to time borrow 2 Sqn aircraft to make up numbers for a sortie, but they never wanted Mustang 373 as the serial numbers added up to 13. One other snippet of info I found was that Lt 'Chappie" James was a good friend of the squadron during his tour in Korea.  

 

There were two styles of roundels on the 2 Sqn Mustangs with small differences between the two, mainly the thickness of the Springbok's front legs. I  have digitized the one from a photo on the Sillouette software. If you have access to a Sillouette I can send you the file.

 

Nick

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by Cheetah11
spelling

[rjones726]

Hi Nick,

I've searched and read everything I could find on the internet on 2 San. I came across a group of photos (many in color) and one jumped out at me. It was a young African-American pilot standing beside his Mustang. At first I thought some knucklehead had put it in the wrong file but as I read more I discovered it was, as you said, Lt. Chappie James.

  While I appreciate the offer, I don't have a Silhouette and intend on using the AIMS decals provided by John.

Thanks,

Rob

[rjones726]

7 hours ago, MikeMaben said:

Maybe some help ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Mike, 

This is exactly the "look" I am hoping to achieve. "Wanda" in particular, is a beautiful example of a well-used Mustang.

Thanks,

Rob

[John1]

3 hours ago, rjones726 said:

Hi Mike, 

This is exactly the "look" I am hoping to achieve. "Wanda" in particular, is a beautiful example of a well-used Mustang.

Thanks,

Rob

Wanda is truly a dirty girl!  Look how the “USAF” on the upper wing is mostly worn off. Good luck replicating that! 

 

  One note on colors - you see mix of OD and black anti-glare panels.   Since OD was standard on WW2 Mustangs, wonder if you could assume black anti-glare panel = refurbed Mustang with no putty and black cockpit? 

 

Rob- on another note, where are you getting the HVAR’s and launchers from?    

Edited September 6, 2019 by John1

[rjones726]

1 hour ago, John1 said:

Wanda is truly a dirty girl!  Look how the “USAF” on the upper wing is mostly worn off. Good luck replicating that! 

 

  One note on colors - you see mix of OD and black anti-glare panels.   Since OD was standard on WW2 Mustangs, wonder if you could assume black anti-glare panel = refurbed Mustang with no putty and black cockpit? 

 

Rob- on another note, where are you getting the HVAR’s and launchers from?    

 Hi John,

I have a set from a Tamiya Corsair. They will require some work to get them to fit but it shouldn't be too tough. As far as the anti glare color I think in general you are correct but I'll need to check the available photos and decide...that's a ways down the road.

v/r,

Rob