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Antonio Argudo

Relic Plywood pieces from a BF-109 G10

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Also about the colors :

 

These are lacquers class 33 and these were known to be a bit different hue wise from the metal lacquers. So i would not make too many conclusions on these 5 fragments you have. They just show what wooden parts on  LW a/c would look like. Nothing more

 

;)

 

V

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An interesting discussion. Knowledge isn't sacred and science isn't averse to the notion of having established dogmas challenged.  There's no downside to being better informed, discovering something new or re-establishing the prevailing wisdom.

 

However, engaging in this process really need not be so passionately adversarial.  Computer monitors and photographs are instruments that may or may not reproduce colour accurately. The human visual system interprets information but it's accuracy is affected by,  a mans genes, neural processing or even ambient luminosity.

 

The only 'museum level' method of determining colour accurately is to use a scientific instrument. An instrument that measures the reflected wavelength of light of different samples but which is calibrated from a standard. A reflected wavelength analysis will objectively determine what the colours of any objects are irrespective of our potentially fallible human visual system. I looked it up...a Multiangle Spectrophotometer.

 

And even then, as Vincent has alluded, a knowledge of chemistry and variations of what might have been applied also contribute to understanding of what 'might' have been.

 

This should be fun, collaborative and informative.

 

Matty

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36 minutes ago, Vincent said:

Also about the colors :

 

These are lacquers class 33 and these were known to be a bit different hue wise from the metal lacquers. So i would not make too many conclusions on these 5 fragments you have. They just show what wooden parts on  LW a/c would look like. Nothing more

 

;)

 

V

well for me that would be exactly what I was looking for, what really interest me, these colors on this period of war! one of the best 50e I invested lately 

 thanks vincent for your reply,

can you please explain something  more about "Lacquers class 33 "?

cheers

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25 minutes ago, LSP_Matt said:

The only 'museum level' method of determining colour accurately is to use a scientific instrument. An instrument that measures the reflected wavelength of light of different samples but which is calibrated from a standard. A reflected wavelength analysis will objectively determine what the colours of any objects are irrespective of our potentially fallible human visual system. I looked it up...a Multiangle Spectrophotometer.

 

thanks Matty for your reply,  I totally Agree with you so that's why I'm sending it to a professional  who has a spectrocolorimeter and base color data, so more precise info we'll have ;)

cheers

Antonio

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But then as Jennings has alluded, it might not determine the true colour when applied due to ageing, it's like when you see a Great Master cleaned, the colours come back, but I guess using a different type of cleaner the colours might be a bit different, and it's impossible to determine what the exact colours were when applied. 

 

Fascinating, and I look forward to hearing the results. 

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, Kagemusha said:

it's impossible to determine what the exact colours were when applied. 

Hi Kagemusha,

yes probably true,  but even getting   close to  the "Exact color"  would be very interesting and worth the effort, cheers

Edited by Antonio Argudo

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Posted (edited)

Class 33 lacquers in RLM nomenclature means paints formulated to be applied on non metal supports, like wood in this case. Applying a metal class lacquer on the wood putty would damage it over time with possible dire consequences. You normally had a warning on every wood assembly stating "to be repaired only with class 33 aviation lacquers" like on the rudder fin from the auction

 

This thread will be fun until we get the "parts in my garage" card, or the "my friends from the german paint industry" card or the "i'm an academic, you're not" card.

 

;)

 

Just to illustrate the minefield, i have few parts from a crashed Ju88A4 in Finland. Parts from the same time frame, same factory (they are not subcontracted) and at least 3 variations of RLM02 on them.

 

So...

Edited by Vincent

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4 hours ago, LSP_Matt said:

The human visual system interprets information but it's accuracy is affected by,  a mans genes, neural processing or even ambient luminosity.

 

This should be fun, collaborative and informative.

 

Matty

Pretty much exactly the point I was going to make. Our eyes and brains interpret color with very subtle differences from person to person,  even without the differences in our tech.

 

One thing that is undeniably obvious is that the three paint samples Antonio posted next to the relics match very well, even considering all the variables. I'd use them happily.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, BiggTim said:

ne thing that is undeniably obvious is that the three paint samples Antonio posted next to the relics match very well, even considering all the variables. I'd use them happily.

 

Thanks Tim for your words, 

 this is comparative just for fun with the  Monogram's Luftwaffe Painting Guide, also found this interesting video with  paint colors  comparison with AK interactive, Gunze Lacquer and Model Master paints,  sadly is only in korean :D

 

 

Screenshot-3772.png

 

 

 

rlm-chart-paints.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

cheers

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Antonio Argudo

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Vincent said:

The 76 on your part looks to lean toward the so called "RLM84" hue. Regular 76 was plain blue

Thanks Vincent for your comment, 

I guess I'm going to  have to refine my chart, a work in progress indeed,  it is due to  photography  lighting,  it looks more blueish in the flesh  and to me matches  with this relic in Poland, and  also I can "feel"  relation with the  76 on the airtake of the australian 109,  it is a very intense color in the flesh,  very particular one.

cheers

 

aaa.jpg

 

unnamed-5.jpg

 

unnamed-2.jpg

unnamed-6.jpg

 

Me-109-G-6-U4-R3-Werknummer-163824.jpg

Edited by Antonio Argudo

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23 hours ago, Antonio Argudo said:

Thanks Vincent for your comment, 

I guess I'm going to  have to refine my chart, a work in progress indeed,  it is due to  photography  lighting,  it looks more blueish in the flesh  and to me matches  with this relic in Poland, and  also I can "feel"  relation with the  76 on the airtake of the australian 109,  it is a very intense color in the flesh,  very particular one.

cheers

 

 

Me-109-G-6-U4-R3-Werknummer-163824.jpg

 I took a heap of photos of the German planes in our Aussie War Memorial. They're in the walkaround section.

 

If I recall correctly, the museum had gone to great lengths to preserve the original colours from WW2. If you approached the museum you might find they have some scientific information about the colours they could pass along. There's a Me262 and a Me163, V1 and more there as well.

 

 

HTH.

 

Cheers Matty

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