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DonH

F4K/M Phantom Conversion Thoughts

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Thought I would start a new thread so as not to hijack the HKM thread.

 

I am eager waiting for the HKM kit, even if I have to wait a few more years (i can do that), I would love to have a large scale Spey Phantom.

 

Which brings me to this: It seems several people have "accurate" measurements and comparisons between the Brit Phantoms and the F4-J. Would it be possible to create 3D printed items to cover the conversion, or is this too much? I am thinking only of the external airframe, cockpit mods you are on your own! Or how about releasing a 3D printable file where people can choose to print their own or get it done by a third party?

 

It seems to me that our natural thoughts, when it comes to AM, is resin and PE but we have this new technology to play with and I would be surprised if it was not possible.

 

I know stuff all about 3D printing, apart from it prints stuff in 3D. So, I welcome your thoughts.

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The short answer is3d printed parts cost  10 times that of Resin casting to start, and go up from there.   Print time is a huge expense as it takes hours to do small parts in detail.   The more detail the longer the time the higher the cost.  This new tech is very useful for pattern making, but not cost effective for just parts.   IF it were you would see Aires and Eduard going with printed parts and that has not happened.

Edited by ghatherly

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Whilst it is technically incorrect that detailed parts take more time to print, I tend to agree with Gary - 3D printed parts for such a large conversion would probably pretty expensive due to their sheer size. 

 

But then, I have to clarify something: details can make a price difference. If you want fully detailed parts with smooth surfaces and surface detail, you have to print them on a SLS or DLP printer; the resin for these printers is much more expensive than the filament for an FDM printer which could be used to print large yet cheap parts - but these would have no usable surface detail and would require serious effort before being usable.

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There are sooooooo many issues here......

 

Reedoak sell 3d printed figures.  They are extraordinary, prepared from scans of real people wearing real clothing and equipment.  So it is already being done.

 

I myself have been spewing out assorted bits for a few friends on the FormLabs, but for numerous reasons, some technical, more to do do with my procrastination, and the unreliabilty of my printer, now happily fixed, and especially more to do with real life crowding into my limited hobby time, I am unlikely to 'commercialise' them.  But I will post a list some time if anyone is interested in what I am interested, if only to spread the love for 3d printing. The possibilities are endless. But, at the moment, so are the limitations, which you MUST take into account if you are going to use the technology. 

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Oh, another point. The actual production of 3d parts, the cost of the materials, even the costs of the printer, its maintenance, the training and so on, even with the highest of high end machines, pales into utter insignificance compared to the costs, time and effort needed to prepare the 3D data.  

 

So, if you REALLY want to get involved with 3D printing, forget printers, nozzles, filaments, resins, UV bulbs and so on. That comes later. MUCH, MUCH later. No,  knuckle down and learn how to model in 3D CAD. Only then, Grasshoppers, will you be on the first rung of the ladder to Enlightenment.

 

 

Edited by wunwinglow

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1 hour ago, wunwinglow said:

Oh, another point. The actual production of 3d parts, the cost of the materials, even the costs of the printer, its maintenance, the training and so on, even with the highest of high end machines, pales into utter insignificance compared to the costs, time and effort needed to prepare the 3D data.  

 

So, if you REALLY want to get involved with 3D printing, forget printers, nozzles, filaments, resins, UV bulbs and so on. That comes later. MUCH, MUCH later. No,  knuckle down and learn how to model in 3D CAD. Only then, Grasshoppers, will you be on the first rung of the ladder to Enlightenment.

 

 

 

Just like painting a car. All the hard work goes on long before the paint goes into the paint gun. 

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1 hour ago, wunwinglow said:

There are sooooooo many issues here......

 

Reedoak sell 3d printed figures.  They are extraordinary, prepared from scans of real people wearing real clothing and equipment.  So it is already being done.

 

I myself have been spewing out assorted bits for a few friends on the FormLabs, but for numerous reasons, some technical, more to do do with my procrastination, and the unreliabilty of my printer, now happily fixed, and especially more to do with real life crowding into my limited hobby time, I am unlikely to 'commercialise' them.  But I will post a list some time if anyone is interested in what I am interested, if only to spread the love for 3d printing. The possibilities are endless. But, at the moment, so are the limitations, which you MUST take into account if you are going to use the technology. 

You are exactly right in this assessment.    I learned to draft with paper and pencils.    Learning to draw on the computer down right sucks by comparison for me, but I am forcing myself to learn to do it as it is the future, but it is not easy at all....at least for me.  For now I source my CAD work.

 

As for the figures, what printer are you using?   I still out source.   I tried the FormLabs II a few years back and it could not handle a F-4 slatted outer wing that printed that shape ways could print with no issues.   The formal rep tried to get it to work but finally gave up and said out stuff was to complicated.   For these figures you are talking about, will they print as smooth surfaces free of layering?  What printer will do this?

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On 2/15/2019 at 5:21 PM, ghatherly said:

You are exactly right in this assessment.    I learned to draft with paper and pencils.    Learning to draw on the computer down right sucks by comparison for me, but I am forcing myself to learn to do it as it is the future, but it is not easy at all....at least for me.  For now I source my CAD work.

 

As for the figures, what printer are you using?   I still out source.   I tried the FormLabs II a few years back and it could not handle a F-4 slatted outer wing that printed that shape ways could print with no issues.   The formal rep tried to get it to work but finally gave up and said out stuff was to complicated.   For these figures you are talking about, will they print as smooth surfaces free of layering?  What printer will do this?

I use a FormLabs 2, I gather Reedoak, a different comppany, use EnvisionTec kit.

 

Gary, I enjoy a challenge!! Happy to try your slats if you like!! We doo some pretty crazy things in rapid-prototyping-land!!!  But yes, there are limits to all processes....

 

Tim

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13 hours ago, Cees Broere said:

How about rapid prototyping the Spey exhaust cans? Would save me a lot of work.:)
Cees

Is that a request for a quotation??!!

 

Tim

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Tim, you might check with Iain first to see what he measured of a Spey-engined F4 a few years back.  He may have done the burner cans already.

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