1/32 F-4K/M. Conversion Set for Tamiya F-4J

[Chek]

11 minutes ago, Tony T said:

the NLG really deserves bronze. The CE edition looks decidely anaemic.

Tony 

 

 

I don't think many designers or builders factored in that the FG1 nose gear leg was much more robust (i.e. thicker to accommodate the double extension) than that on a regular Phantom.

It's one of those things, once you know about the rake angle and the greater bulk you can't miss it, but is easily overlooked if you don' know.

[Dave Williams]

1 hour ago, ghatherly said:

I posted this to show how different each persons opinion is of a conversion.  The 3D printed and multi media version you propose are not cheap, and may be more be costly than what I estimate for all resin.    With each person wanting something different, and the varying opinions of what is right and what is not, no one is going to touch such a project as it would be suicide for whatever was produced.  It would be too expensive, wrong shape, hard to build, etc.    I guess what is needed is a complete plastic kit for $50.  What maybe the cause of no F-4K/M yet from HK or anyone else is the protective customer base????  Just food for thought.

 

I have to disagree about the base.  No one expects a plastic kit for only $50, but there is a limit on what people will pay for a conversion or a plastic kit.  The number of people who would pay $200 for a good plastic kit is likely quite a bit different than those who would pay $450 for a conversion of a $100 kit that you need on top of that.  A number of people here will easily drop one or two hundred dollars on a kit alone, as seen by the number of ZM, Tamiya, and HKM kits people are buying.  Once you start talking $300-$400+ for a 1/32 F-4, the math changes considerably.

Edited February 14, 2019 by Dave Williams

[Out2gtcha]

My normal limit for a plastic kit by itself is around the $300 and that would have to be a VERY passionate like for me.

 

It may not be enough to even cover costs of the conversion, but realistically I would have to put a cap of about $200 as a limit for any conversions. As was mentioned, I would not be able to afford a $200+ kit with a $200+ conversion.    It might not be realistic as far as what the conversion would cost to make, but its realistic as far as what I would have to spend.           

[Tony T]

1 hour ago, Chek said:

 

I don't think many designers or builders factored in that the FG1 nose gear leg was much more robust (i.e. thicker to accommodate the double extension) than that on a regular Phantom.

It's one of those things, once you know about the rake angle and the greater bulk you can't miss it, but is easily overlooked if you don' know.

 

I took photos of the extended F-4K NLG at Yeovilton around 2006 specifically for Dave Klaus. But with the red braces on the leg he might not have noticed the rake or chunkiness of the gear. 

 

As for the prospective HKM 1/32 F-4K, I'll pay £250 for a warts'n'all injection moulded polystyrene model kitset and would be chuffed to bits. I'm sure most would agree with that statement, in the knowledge that any errors would be minor.

 

Tony

[Starfighter]

I've been following the whole Spey Phantom discussion with big interest and I have to admit I always wondered why a manufacturer would consider a 32nd scale kit - the market is extremely small, despite 20 or maybe 50 or even 200 people worldwide badly wanting one. Break even for such a complex kit must be around 3000 pcs or more and I really don't think there is a market for such a large quantity. I think it's highly unlikely we'll see an IM kit of this rather esoteric aircraft soon as it would be pretty much suicidal from an economic point of view. Even a conversion kit would be extremely complex and expensive... don't get me wrong, I'd be happy for all of you guys dreaming of a kit, I just wouldn't be too optimistic...

[Out2gtcha]

All true Ben.

However, just 10 or even 5 years ago, I would have said the same thing about a 32nd scale B-17, B-25, B-24, duel control Do-335, Ho-229, F7F, Ta-154 and on and on. I think you are right that the overall worldwide demand by Spey junkies is light, but you might be surprised at how well one might sell. 

Im definitely no Brit Phantom junkie by any stretch of the imagination, but I know if an IM kit came out of one, or a reasonable conversion set hit the market, Id buy one for sure. 

[Tony T]

I'm more optimistic Starfighter.

 

But just in case the HKM Spey Toom doesn't happen I've been getting a buzz from smaller scale offerings from Airfix et al — the diddy Airfix edition has been an enormous success, so it's not exactly an outsider. And Xtradecal are churning out 1/48 stuff for the Revellogawa repop. The vibes I get are that a lot of smaller scalers would break scale just for a 1/32 F-4K/M. 

 

Any top drawer subject I like is bought in every available double-digit scale. 

 

Tony 

[ghatherly]

1 hour ago, Dave Williams said:

 

I have to disagree about the base.  No one expects a plastic kit for only $50, but there is a limit on what people will pay for a conversion or a plastic kit.  The number of people who would pay $200 for a good plastic kit is likely quite a bit different than those who would pay $450 for a conversion of a $100 kit that you need on top of that.  A number of people here will easily drop one or two hundred dollars on a kit alone, as seen by the number of ZM, Tamiya, and HKM kits people are buying.  Once you start talking $300-$400+ for a 1/32 F-4, the math changes considerably.

Dave,  there was a good amount of sarcasm in the $50 price, as in the purpose of the thread.   What I proposed was the set price we arrived a 3 years ago when doing the feasibility study for an F-4K/M conversion.  It is not an arbitrary number and factored on no profit on 50 kits, it just covered costs. One hundred sets would be required to make money and there are not that many enthusiasts that would buy.    These are the facts, not speculation.  Having one of the manufacturers  building in plastic is the only bet.

 

  The real question is will the distributors and large online shops buy them in quantity in the belief that they will sell.    Kitty Hawk ran int this with the F-11 tiger project a few years back.  Glenn was going to do the kit the Distributors and shops killed it.  Please remember too that the original Wild Hare set was over $200 and that was 13 years ago.  My point is that there are so few people who seriously want one, who each have a differing opinion as to correctness, and who have such a diversity in what they can afford or will pay.

 

Now HPH seems to have found a niche with very high dollar production and special order kits like the C-47, B-36, and the B-52H.  I am in for the B-52H kit at number 24 on the list and yes it is very expensive, but I want one and This is the only way to get one...so I pay.   I would bet that HPH is not over 30 on the reservation list.

[ghatherly]

1 hour ago, Starfighter said:

I've been following the whole Spey Phantom discussion with big interest and I have to admit I always wondered why a manufacturer would consider a 32nd scale kit - the market is extremely small, despite 20 or maybe 50 or even 200 people worldwide badly wanting one. Break even for such a complex kit must be around 3000 pcs or more and I really don't think there is a market for such a large quantity. I think it's highly unlikely we'll see an IM kit of this rather esoteric aircraft soon as it would be pretty much suicidal from an economic point of view. Even a conversion kit would be extremely complex and expensive... don't get me wrong, I'd be happy for all of you guys dreaming of a kit, I just wouldn't be too optimistic...

 

 

  Ben, you explain things so well but express exactly what I am trying to say.

 

 

1 hour ago, Out2gtcha said:

All true Ben.

However, just 10 or even 5 years ago, I would have said the same thing about a 32nd scale B-17, B-25, B-24, duel control Do-335, Ho-229, F7F, Ta-154 and on and on. I think you are right that the overall worldwide demand by Spey junkies is light, but you might be surprised at how well one might sell. 

Im definitely no Brit Phantom junkie by any stretch of the imagination, but I know if an IM kit came out of one, or a reasonable conversion set hit the market, Id buy one for sure. 

You both are very, very right.  IF I were a betting man I would have bet against it in agreement with you.  

[ghatherly]

BY the way Brian,  how is your back doing?   Off topic I know.

[Out2gtcha]

Thanks for asking................Got surgery on the 20th of December and Im a new man. I hate to use the word "life changing" but really that is the only phrase that seems to sum things up! I can walk, bend, sit, stand and carry things now. Its amazing...............I actually have my life back now!

 

From all the SME opinions by the people in the know of the business like Gary, the conversion seems to be out of reach as far as the cost needed to make it decently accurate for the few who want to build it VS the cost to the consumer. 

 

It seems all hope is down to someone like HKM putting a full kit out. 

[ghatherly]

2 hours ago, Out2gtcha said:

Thanks for asking................Got surgery on the 20th of December and Im a new man. I hate to use the word "life changing" but really that is the only phrase that seems to sum things up! I can walk, bend, sit, stand and carry things now. Its amazing...............I actually have my life back now!

 

From all the SME opinions by the people in the know of the business like Gary, the conversion seems to be out of reach as far as the cost needed to make it decently accurate for the few who want to build it VS the cost to the consumer. 

 

It seems all hope is down to someone like HKM putting a full kit out. 

Hey Brian, that is great news.   Had the same surgery back in 2003 with your results.  Amazing how a little piece of hard tissue pressing on a nerve can be so painful and it's removal so dramatic.   Glad to hear it!    

[Tony T]

I pop ibuprofen like M&Ms. Especially effective with Laphroaig single malt.

 

best to you both. Back problems are a real pain near the @$$

 

Tony 

 

 

[ScottsGT]

Thanks Chek.  Just looked at the build thread.  Yea, I’ll wait for an IM kit.  This conversion would be as extensive at Paul Fishers fat faced Skyraider kits. But a little larger! 

[Starfighter]

15 hours ago, Tony T said:

I'm more optimistic Starfighter.

 

But just in case the HKM Spey Toom doesn't happen I've been getting a buzz from smaller scale offerings from Airfix et al — the diddy Airfix edition has been an enormous success, so it's not exactly an outsider. And Xtradecal are churning out 1/48 stuff for the Revellogawa repop. The vibes I get are that a lot of smaller scalers would break scale just for a 1/32 F-4K/M. 

 

Any top drawer subject I like is bought in every available double-digit scale. 

 

Tony 

 

1/32 is completely different from 1/72 and 1/48 - the market is much, much smaller. Like I said, I'd be very happy for all of you guys, I just don't believe it will happen.