Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

[John1]

The info in this thread is truly fascinating.   Had no idea that those early RLM colors were so prevalent on late-war aircraft.   I am specifically curious about the Ar-234.  It was mentioned above that many (all?) of those jets were finished in these early colors.  However, the NASM, who typically does a good job of researching their subjects, painted their jet in 81/82.   Did they miss something or was this particular jet actually painted in late war greens?   

 

Same goes for their Do335. 

[rigor]

Love this. Subject great read like to see those wings in that combo of 70/65 seems like an odd combo 

[Hardcore]

A little off topic: aging rubber tires, what do they do about that when restoring aircrafts? 

[John1]

So I came across this pic over on HS.  Assuming it's not colorized (pretty sure it's original), it's a great shot of a couple of late war fighters.   Good example of the red fabric primer inside the rudder.  What I'm not clear on is what's the base color on the fuselage?  Sure doesn't look like regular 76, is it the sky version or is it possible the fuselage is in dirty NMF?    Is the rudder 75?  

 

Also, thoughts on what color was used for the cowling and MG cover?  

 

[Radub]

8 hours ago, John1 said:

The info in this thread is truly fascinating.   Had no idea that those early RLM colors were so prevalent on late-war aircraft.   I am specifically curious about the Ar-234.  It was mentioned above that many (all?) of those jets were finished in these early colors.  However, the NASM, who typically does a good job of researching their subjects, painted their jet in 81/82.   Did they miss something or was this particular jet actually painted in late war greens?   

 

Same goes for their Do335. 

 

 

The majority of Ar 234 and Do 335 were painted 70/71 over 65. Some were painted in "late-war colours." The Smithsonian aircraft were not restored to their original colours, but rather they were painted in late-war colours in order to illustrate what they would have looked like in the closing days of the war. It was impossible to recover the original colour scheme of the Ar 234, and they tried hard. Kenneth Merrick was involved in the research and he provided the colour swatches for the current colour scheme. The colour details were mentioned in the Monogram books on the 234 and 335 and they mention the early war colours. However, in the recent time it became easier (or lazy?) for many profile illustrators, "researchers" or manufacturers to just forego all research and just conclude that ALL aircraft were painted 81/82. 

 

 

42 minutes ago, Hardcore said:

A little off topic: aging rubber tires, what do they do about that when restoring aircrafts? 

 

 

The Smithsonian Ar 234 wheels were filled with resin foam.They are in good shape. In the recent years it became clear that this is not a good idea in general. If the aircraft is moved, that causes damage to the rubber. For example, the wheels of the Ki-100 in Cosford, filled with resin, were damaged when the plane was moved. 

 

Hth,

Radu

[airscale]

this thread is one of the reasons I love to hang out on LSP...

 

wonderful...

 

I don't care if there are ever any conclusions, I am just enjoying the conversation and learning lots of new things

 

my thanks to you Gentlemen..

 

Peter

[rigor]

John. I have a list of colors. On yellow 8.  If I remember right it's like 10 different colors or so. Let me see if I can find it.  

[D.B. Andrus]

3 hours ago, John1 said:

So I came across this pic over on HS.  Assuming it's not colorized (pretty sure it's original), it's a great shot of a couple of late war fighters.   Good example of the red fabric primer inside the rudder.  What I'm not clear on is what's the base color on the fuselage?  Sure doesn't look like regular 76, is it the sky version or is it possible the fuselage is in dirty NMF?    Is the rudder 75?  

 

Also, thoughts on what color was used for the cowling and MG cover?  

 

 

 

John1, stepping  way out on a limb, with saw firmly in hand, my quick take based on this image.

 

From the nose:

 

Cowling, armor ring - 76, light; 74

Cowling ring - 66 or 22;  74

Cowling top - 75

Cowling sides - 70; 76

Cowling underside - 75

Gun cover - 70

Wing root, front - 70

Undercarriage cover - 76

Fuselage upper - 81 (front of windscreen to just past end of canopy); 82(?), thin, to base of fin.

Fuselage sides - 81 (overspray); light blue green

Tail section -81; 76

Rudder - 65

 

Your mileage may vary.

 

Cheers,

D.B.

 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2019 by D.B. Andrus

[rigor]

D B beat me to it. Lol  I have no idea where I put it. Pretty sure he's on target with the colors 

Edited January 20, 2019 by rigor

[John1]

Thanks for this info on that aircraft.   Think that landing gear cover is the also light blue green (sans the overspray)?   Do you think there is any chance the fuselage is NMF with a light overspray?   It just seems to have a sheen to it.  

[D.B. Andrus]

On 1/20/2019 at 6:49 PM, John1 said:

Thanks for this info on that aircraft.   Think that landing gear cover is the also light blue green (sans the overspray)?   Do you think there is any chance the fuselage is NMF with a light overspray?   It just seems to have a sheen to it.  

 

On my monitor it comes across a clean blue/gray.

 

Can't buy NMF on fuselage. RLM paints tended have a sheen (depending on manner of application and/or how much flattening agent was added by the manufacturer) to them when fresh. There also was a topical wax product applied to paint  that would protect and retain the flat appearance of the paint. Instructions were to coat the paint, lightly rub, but not too much or it would gloss up and defeat the purpose of the non-reflective surface.* Obviously, these instructions were often disregarded.

 

*  Luftwaffe Colours 1935-1945 by Michael Ullmann; Hikoki Publications; 2008; pp. 252-256.

 

HTH,

 

D.B.

[Martinnfb]

Very interesting topic gentlemen. I will try to get in touch with our member  Pufo (Tomas), he's highly knowledgeable regarding evolution of LW colour. Until then here is a picture to stir the pot.

Lover fuselage has this  semi-circular dark shade segment. It is also visible on many pictures of Fw-190D-11

 

 

If I can suggest an idea?

 

a big and often overseen role played layering.  Basically it boils down to how thick was the paint , therefore the difference in shade/tone and  it's resistance to elements , UV radiation etc.

 

Edited January 21, 2019 by Martinnfb

[Troy Molitor]

Going back to the previous page on Gelb “8”.  The fabric skin looks to be completely torn off on the port side of the rudder.   I think we’re seeing a light primer or the natural metal rudder frame maybe?   Even the aileron on that side has damage to it.    

Just my guess.  

 

Nice pictures above.  Thanks for sharing.  

 

Troy 

[Dave Williams]

It was touched on about a week ago, but no comment on the contention in the Merrick book that RLM 81/82/83 were simply reissues of pre-war RLM 61/62/64?

 

Also regarding the Do335, it’s been supposed in the Classic book that most of them were painted 70/71/65 simply because Dornier was a bomber manufacturer and had large supplies of those paints on hand to use up.  As the Do335 was their only fighter, and production was limited, there was little reason for them to go out and get the “correct” paints.

[RBrown]

3 hours ago, Dave Williams said:

It was touched on about a week ago, but no comment on the contention in the Merrick book that RLM 81/82/83 were simply reissues of pre-war RLM 61/62/64?

 

Also regarding the Do335, it’s been supposed in the Classic book that most of them were painted 70/71/65 simply because Dornier was a bomber manufacturer and had large supplies of those paints on hand to use up.  As the Do335 was their only fighter, and production was limited, there was little reason for them to go out and get the “correct” paints.

 

Although there is a superficial resemblance between RLM 61 and 81 there is no real evidence for for the notion that the late war greens are the same as the early colors.  There is  substantial, but not conclusive, evidence that RLM 83 is blue, and this is irreconcilable with notion there is a relationship between the early and late colors.

 

While it is almost certain that the earliest examples of the Do 335 were painted in the RLM 70/71 combination there is also photographic evidence of RLM 81/ 82 use on the Do 335...

 

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by RBrown