Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

[RBrown]

With the introduction 81 and 82 a RLM decree  permitted residual stocks of RLM 70 and 71 to be paired with RLM 82 and 81 respectively, that is, 70/82 or 71/81 combinations. 

 

It is interesting to note the NASM Fw 190 F was meticulously researched for its color history and found to be painted with extensive areas of RLM 70.  This machine was originally constructed as a Fw 190 A-7, returned damaged, and rebuilt to F-8 specifications.  I've posted a scan from The Official Painting Guide to German Aircraft 1935-1945 to illustrate.  Note that the color chips displayed are specific to this particular machine.

 

Edited January 17, 2019 by RBrown

[D.B. Andrus]

Interesting "Ultra" intercept- Nick Beale's Ghostbombers website:

 

15 June 1944
CX/MSS/T221/70

From (Roman) I./KG 66, Abt. IT to Feldluftgau W. France, QM-QM 1 arms and equipment, (smudge) 4 on 15/6:

For repainting newly allocated a/c (13 Ju 88 S-3) the following is required:

100 kg. thinning, 7200.00

40 kg. a/c paint (black) 7160.22

30 kg. a/c paint (blue) 7160.24

For ops, immediate allocation (collection by receiving authority) requested.

NOTE: This appears to establish that (Roman) I./KG 66 is re-equipping on to Ju 88 S-3. Compare T220/131. T221/26 also mentioned Ju 188.
 

That's a lot of blue paint for only markings. Another conundrum?

 

Cheers,

 

D.B.

[thierry laurent]

Could this be RLM83? Out of my memory its use was confirmed on Ju88s based in France. 

[RBrown]

Based on actual measurement a gallon of paint weighs about 12.3 pounds, or a bit over 5.7 kilograms.  So 30 kilograms of paint would be about 5 gallons or just under 20 liters.

 

This seems about right for markings for 13 Ju 88s.

Edited January 17, 2019 by RBrown

[RBrown]

3 hours ago, thierry laurent said:

Could this be RLM83? Out of my memory its use was confirmed on Ju88s based in France. 

 

I do not think so, first RLM was designed specifically for Mediterranean Sea operations.  Second if the paint was to be employed as camouflage why not order RLM 83 instead of 24?

 

AFAIK its only reported use use in theaters other than the Med had involved an aircraft that had transferred from service in the Mediterranean. 

[Hardcore]

Then, given that the color designed was for a specific staffel (can't recall which, it would be reasonable to assume they ordered more than needed so to have some in stock at unit level.

[MikeMaben]

On 1/17/2019 at 10:28 AM, Radub said:

 

I have no "hard proof" that 70/71 continued to be used after the order to discontinue them was issued. But it is hard to believe that remaining stocks of paint were simply discarded (or ignored) especially since there is so much talk of the precarious state of paint manufacture in Germany in 44/45. Considering that 80/71 were so ubiquitous, there must have been some in store. 

Radu

 

They were standard on bombers and props

thru the end of the war weren't they ?

There was likely plenty of it available.

 

On 1/17/2019 at 2:07 AM, Padraic Conway said:

 

Thanks for that clarification. The text wasn't cut and pasted from the article but hand-typed by me. And, once again, my keyboard lacked the required German punctuation/grammar characters.

 

Hi Padraic, they're not on your keyboard. They're in your character map

or this easier method :

 

alt 132  ä

alt 142  Ä

alt 148  ö

alt 153  Ö

alt 129  ü

alt 154  Ü

alt 225  ß

alt 0235 ë

alt 0203  Ë

may have to type 0 in front of the number.

alt 0128 =   €

 

I copied the above to a text file and keep it on my desktop.

hth

 

Edit : oops forgot the E

 

 

Edited January 18, 2019 by MikeMaben

[Radub]

6 hours ago, MikeMaben said:

 

They were standard on bombers and props

thru the end of the war weren't they ?

There was likely plenty of it available.

 

 

 

The famous order issued in September 1944, which introduced 81/82, stated that 71 was to be discontinued and 70 would continue to be used for props. 

My point is this: there seems to be a generally-accepted attitude that after September 1944, there was NOTHING other than 81/82/83, even in the cases when we clearly know that 70/71 was used. For example, how many models of Do 335 or Ar 234 are painted 70/71? Everyone paints them 81/83, without exception. 

Radu

[Mark P]

Stukas retained RLM 70/71/65 throughout the war. However, RLM 65 took on more of a green tint. 

 

Mark Proulx

[Radub]

55 minutes ago, Mark P said:

Stukas retained RLM 70/71/65 throughout the war. However, RLM 65 took on more of a green tint. 

 

Mark Proulx

 

Ah well, production of Ju 87 ended around the time when 81/82 were introduced. 

Radu 

[RBrown]

13 hours ago, Radub said:

 

The famous order issued in September 1944, which introduced 81/82, stated that 71 was to be discontinued and 70 would continue to be used for props. 

My point is this: there seems to be a generally-accepted attitude that after September 1944, there was NOTHING other than 81/82/83, even in the cases when we clearly know that 70/71 was used. For example, how many models of Do 335 or Ar 234 are painted 70/71? Everyone paints them 81/83, without exception. 

Radu

 

RLM 81 and 82 were announced in a letter dated August 23, 1943, for the purpose of preparing aircraft manufacturers for the change from 70/71 to 81/82.

 

On July 1, 1944 a communication from the RLM and the Commander in Chief of the Luftwaffe, directed the change to the new colors at the next convenient point in time.

 

This communication additionally directed that existing stocks of  70 and 71 should be used up.  Additionally any residual stock of either 70 or 71 could be paired with the new colors in the following combinations 70/82 and 71/81.

Edited January 18, 2019 by RBrown

[Radub]

11 hours ago, RBrown said:

 

RLM 81 and 82 were announced in a letter dated August 23, 1943, for the purpose of preparing aircraft manufacturers for the change from 70/71 to 81/82.

 

On July 1, 1944 a communication from the RLM and the Commander in Chief of the Luftwaffe, directed the change to the new colors at the next convenient point in time.

 

This communication additionally directed that existing stocks of  70 and 71 should be used up.  Additionally any residual stock of either 70 or 71 could be paired with the new colors in the following combinations 70/82 and 71/81.

 

You are right, that may be wrong wording on my behalf. Instead of "introduce" I should have said "implement" in order to avoid confusion. OK, back to issue at hand. When people analyse photos of aircraft after late-summer 1944, they automatically go for the "late war colours", no discussion. But as you said, the stocks of existing colours continued to be used, which makes a whole lot of sense, especially considering the increasing shortage of resources. Last month, Jennings opened a post on this forum about the latest book on Bf 109 from JaPo, in which they showed Bf 109 K painted 74/75 and he was wondering why there were no "late war colours". Why not? Who made it an "unbreakable rule" that ONLY "late war colours" were used after the autumn of 1944. When was the last time you saw any model, colour profile or piece of research that mentions "early war colours" used after September 1944? Now people scratch their heads and wonder "if 83 was blue, then what was that dark green?" What if that dark green was just old stocks of 71? 

BTW, talking about "83 was blue", back in the nineties when the "Luft 46" was a fashion, there was a discussion on a forum about a number of Allied "captured aircraft reports" in which the propeller paint was described as "dark blue". It was a long time ago and I can't be sure, but I think it may have been in relation to the propellers of Ju 388. Could this dark blue be 83? 

Radu 

[Padraic Conway]

2 hours ago, Radub said:

 

BTW, talking about "83 was blue", back in the nineties when the "Luft 46" was a fashion, there was a discussion on a forum about a number of Allied "captured aircraft reports" in which the propeller paint was described as "dark blue". It was a long time ago and I can't be sure, but I think it may have been in relation to the propellers of Ju 388. Could this dark blue be 83? 

Radu 

 

I had forgotten all about this.  The 'Monogram Painting Guide to German Aircraft' has a colour chip on p143 called 'Blue-Grey'. No RLM number is given for the chip. The accompanying text describes how this was used on wooden VS9 and VS111 propellers in the closing war years. So it might be more widely used than just for a single airframe type? I'm aware of the age of this reference source, but the colour chips in this book are still acknowledged to be extremely accurate.

 

What an interesting idea

 

Padraic

Edited January 19, 2019 by Padraic Conway

[RBrown]

18 hours ago, Radub said:

BTW, talking about "83 was blue", back in the nineties when the "Luft 46" was a fashion, there was a discussion on a forum about a number of Allied "captured aircraft reports" in which the propeller paint was described as "dark blue". It was a long time ago and I can't be sure, but I think it may have been in relation to the propellers of Ju 388. Could this dark blue be 83? 

Radu 

 

For those following the discussion that don't have access to the Monogram Painting Guide here is a scan showing the Blue-Gray chip...

 

 

According to the authors this paint was found on VS 9 and VS 111 propellers.   This paint was used only for surface protection and had no relationship with RLM 83 which was intended only as a camouflage coating.

 

Contemporaneous accounts describe RLM 83 as a Royal Blue.

Edited January 20, 2019 by RBrown

[Troy Molitor]

A fascinating subject for discussion.  I’d like to contribute a little, if I may.  If anyone has a copy of the Aeroplane Monthly magazine, April 2010, or the Classic Wings 2009 Voume 16, No.2 issue 70, both magazines have articles about the Paris based Memorial Flight Association immaculate restoration of the Musee de l’Air’s rare He 162.  The article is more an interview with the program director Philippe Couderchon.  

 

This is perhaps one of the best preserved late war examples out there.  (IMHO) The wings of this bird are painted in RLM 70 and 65.  This also the same that was found on the NASM example W.Nr. 120230.  A sub contractor obviously used old stock RLM 70/65 when painting these wooden wings.  Then the BMW 003 cowling received the late war RLM 81/82 combination with the BMW inlet in RLM 02.  The fuselage under four layers of paint was found to be the later war RLM 76 variant of the duck-egg grey-green color and yet the empanage again had the upper portions in RLM81/82 but this time the undersides were found to be in the mid war RLM 76 light blue grey.  A fascinating read about his W.Nr 120015.  Even the gear legs were different from one another on the same aircraft.  The port leg was found to be from a Bf 109 and was painted in RLM 76 light blue while the original starboard leg in RLM 66 black grey.   

 

Three examples of the wings painted in RLM 70/65 and yet I have never seen any decal sheet mention these upper and lower wing colors. They only mentioned factory call outs in RLM 81 Brown Violet/ RLM 82 Dark Green.  W.Nr. 120015, 120230 and 120076 that went to Farnborough.  The first two were confirmed in RLM 70 Black Green under the BWM 003 engine fire wall.  

 

The tails of all the He 162 were easily swapped out with one another and this lead to a lot of confusion post war and the confusion over actual W.Nrs .  You dont really realize the airframes were painted so many times after the war.  The NASM example also had the outer wings sawn off at the inboard aileron section and the outboard wing tips were then hinged together to make it easy to transport around the USA.   Good research is always key to making up your own mind. 

 

I would love to see someone’s collection of bits in their garage to make up my own conclusions.  Great topic for discussion on LSP gent’s!

 

Troy