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D.B. Andrus

Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

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In photos 1-3, 5 & 6 there appears to me a use of a brown hue in combination with a green and/or gray.  My determination is this is brown 81, given the limits of the color photography in these particular cases. Kiroff's formula for 81 leads to a brown color. With that said, how do we explain the original container Tomas Poruba has in his possession marked as 81 yet containing a green hued RLM paint. Could it be as simple as if the can was marked as 81, for example, then the color in the can, whether it was green , brown or purple was officially 81 in that instance? 

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Here is an example of the parts i have. Both canon port covers, both from D9. You can see one is regular 76 while the other is the greenish 76. The little spekles are the binder that chipped away, revealing a beautiful pigment layer of regular 76. I know the green isn't a repaint because it is under the top side color as a primer (RLM81 here) :

 

<expired picture>

 

 

Edited by Vincent/MDC
expired picture

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6 hours ago, D.B. Andrus said:

In photos 1-3, 5 & 6 there appears to me a use of a brown hue in combination with a green and/or gray.  My determination is this is brown 81, given the limits of the color photography in these particular cases. Kiroff's formula for 81 leads to a brown color. With that said, how do we explain the original container Tomas Poruba has in his possession marked as 81 yet containing a green hued RLM paint. Could it be as simple as if the can was marked as 81, for example, then the color in the can, whether it was green , brown or purple was officially 81 in that instance? 

 

RLM 81 appears to exhibit a lot of variation from chocolate brown to dark olive green.  RLM 82 varies from deep viridian green to a neutral green. The RLM apparently recognized this and exempted manufacturers from meeting color standards after these colors were introduced.

 

The photos posted above appears to me to be 81/82 in a low demarcation defensive scheme and the earlier offensive scheme with 81/82 replacing RLM 74 and 75.

 

The notion that the late war variation of RLM 76 would trend from greenish to beige depending on its application is interesting.   

 

On a related note there are several photos of late war Bf 109s with the low demarcation defensive schemes that have received a fuselage mottle reminiscent of the earlier offensive scheme.  Note that the mottle is applied over the underlying camouflage...

 

32819908728_d4bcf5f9df_h.jpg

Edited by RBrown

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23 hours ago, D.B. Andrus said:

                                           In the end you roll the dice and take your chances. Love this subject!

 

                                                                                j0j903N.jpg

 

                                                                                                Me too.

 

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To categorically dismiss the supply situation is not prudent.  These paint suppliers were also getting bombed by the USAAF.  At one point during regular G6 production, the Regensburg 109 factory was delivering it's fighters in overall RLM 76 because their paint supplier was bombed.

 

Added to this, the rail and road infrastructure was being pounded daily and waves of USAAF fighter bombers were looking for targets of opportunity.

 

It's obvious that some of those fuselages pictured are in an overall dark color which wraps still the way around.  Without a directive, we can with some justification assume that apply difficulties were in fact making their presence felt.

 

Anyone who thinks they can say what certainly happened 75 years ago is being unrealistic.

 

Gaz

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I really like that G-14 with the overall green (or greens) finish.  Had no idea that earlier airframes were painted like that, thought it was unique to certain G-10's and a very few K-4's.   Anyone have more pics of this or other similarly painted G-14's?

 

This is truly my favorite subject.   If anyone is interested, Hyperscale's reference section has some really informative articles on late war German paint schemes including one on the ultimate example of weirdness, the AWM Bf-109G-6.  Some of the links to pictures are now broken but there is a great deal of useful info in those articles.   

 

Wish Brett would someday fix all the broken links.  

 

 

Edited by John1

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1 hour ago, Gazzas said:

Anyone who thinks they can say what certainly happened 75 years ago is being unrealistic.

 

I'm not quite sure anyone has attempted to do that in this thread. Just trying to make a little sense of a very complex subject.  :)

 

Cheers,

D.B.

 

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5 hours ago, Gazzas said:

To categorically dismiss the supply situation is not prudent.  These paint suppliers were also getting bombed by the USAAF.  At one point during regular G6 production, the Regensburg 109 factory was delivering it's fighters in overall RLM 76 because their paint supplier was bombed.

 

Added to this, the rail and road infrastructure was being pounded daily and waves of USAAF fighter bombers were looking for targets of opportunity.

 

It's obvious that some of those fuselages pictured are in an overall dark color which wraps still the way around.  Without a directive, we can with some justification assume that apply difficulties were in fact making their presence felt.

 

Anyone who thinks they can say what certainly happened 75 years ago is being unrealistic.

 

Gaz

You mean those machines used for high altitude fighting and in the Night fighter units? 

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5 hours ago, Gazzas said:

To categorically dismiss the supply situation is not prudent

 

I rely on the 1945 and 1946 surveys done by the RAF to assess the effects of both their bombing campaign and the US one on the german a/c indusry. It is clearly stated in these surveys that paint production and storage was never affected for long and that delivery of the finished products was steady all across the territory.

Remember that we are talking here about concentrated pastes that were diluted at the painting stage. It was a very compact and easy good to transport in large quantities.

 

If the germans did not see a problem in 1945, why would i see one in 2019 ?

 

Vincent

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47 minutes ago, Vincent/MDC said:

 

"never affected for long":   

"concentrated pastes that were diluted at the painting stage"

 

If the germans did not see a problem in 1945, why would i see one in 2019 ?

 

Vincent

 

"never affected for long":  

This cannot mean that there were never problems in supply, just that the Germans were capable of getting back to paint production.  As the Germans were struggling to produce more and more aircraft, they couldn't hold an aircraft from the front waiting on a certain color.  A person can never say "always" or "never".

 

"concentrated pastes that were diluted at the painting stage":

  I think we've had this discussion before.  The only concentrated pastes delivered to the front that I know of for certain were for Panzers and could be diluted with fuel, water, or any number of solvents.   I doubt complicated lacquers for an aircraft meant to cover in one coat were delivered this way.  I would love to see your documentation.

 

You can't rely on one source taken after the fact and say "always" or "never".  Too many photographs exist to disprove them.

 

Gaz

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