Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

[RBrown]

Note that the paints were not mixed, i.e., blended  together, but  used in conjunction with one another; 71 could be substituted for 82 and 70 for 81. Thus the following combinations were permissible 70/82 and 71/81.

 

The RLM had directed that  stocks of RLM 70 and 71 to be used up before the new colors were employed, but recognized in some instances the manufacturer would be left with a residual stock of one of the two colors.   

Edited March 3, 2019 by RBrown

[D.B. Andrus]

I would not be surprised to see 70/82 or 71/82 on some of the green on green 190D's. No documentation, just intuition.

 

Cheers,

 

D.B.

 

 

[Guest Vincent]

Hi

 

"Stocks" is a relative concept as the paint was more or less delivered on contract basis. Quite close to the "just in time" of today's industry.

 

So stocks would have probably not covered more than a dozen a/c (depending on the a/c size) at the time of transition

 

V

Edited March 4, 2019 by Vincent/MDC

[DeanKB]

It's funny how Germany was getting bombed into oblivion, squeezed from west, south, north and - especially - east, with food in short supply, deaths mounting, new pilots having a few hours training,  the country being inevitably overrun underneath the Soviet hordes - and yet the German bureaucracy still got arsey about what colour to paint the aircraft that were going to invariably be shot down in a matter of days.

 

I'm not sure it mattered much what colours were used. 

[Guest Vincent]

12 hours ago, DeanKB said:

It's funny how Germany was getting bombed into oblivion, squeezed from west, south, north and - especially - east, with food in short supply, deaths mounting, new pilots having a few hours training,  the country being inevitably overrun underneath the Soviet hordes - and yet the German bureaucracy still got arsey about what colour to paint the aircraft that were going to invariably be shot down in a matter of days.

 

I'm not sure it mattered much what colours were used. 

 

This is called insight

 

But the bureaucracy was more important than ever at the end of the war because it meant that whoever was operating it wasn't facing the russians with a Panzerfaust.

 

It was something that puzzled me for a while and it was explained to me by a famous german pilot who surrendered to the allied in May 45. He basically said that as long as the LW existed, even on paper, the pilots and mechanics were not called to serve as infantry. So they took extreme measures to report activity to the HQ and request new a/c even when they had no pilots and fuel to fly them.

 

Because to them it had been clear for at least 6 months that the reich was finished and they were mainly concerned in staying alive and be captured by the allies

 

[Hardcore]

Given that the Luftwaffe did fly missions to the very end, and that the personnel was transferred to the infantry... 

 

Total breakdown only occurs when you get no orders from the top. Until then machinery turns and work is done, regardless of the situation. A similar case is ceasefires. War continues up until the agreed point, strange as it seems. 

[LSP_Ray]

Hmmm...bureaucracy working to justify their existence...in my experience they don't need losing a war to make that happen.

[Troy Molitor]

21 pages of a great topic for discussion.  I always admire the LSP crowd for these great conversations.   

 

Troy 

[Guest Vincent]

9 hours ago, Hardcore said:

Given that the Luftwaffe did fly missions to the very end, and that the personnel was transferred to the infantry... 

 

Total breakdown only occurs when you get no orders from the top. Until then machinery turns and work is done, regardless of the situation. A similar case is ceasefires. War continues up until the agreed point, strange as it seems. 

 

Some personnel was transferred and some missions were flown but when you study the figures you can easily see that the personnel and machine to mission ratio doesn't match.

 

The wonder weapons like the 262 were another great excuse to keep people waiting

[nmayhew]

On 1/11/2019 at 7:05 PM, Jerry Crandall said:

There is a new large book in the works that will have a much

 new information that will answer a lot of questions about late war colors. One is that the late war light green and was a separate color than RLM 76 light blue and sometimes was used along side of 76 . In addition there are a lot of samples of light green that was painted over 76. There are still a lot of unanswered questions but there will  lots of break through data.

       Cheers, Jerry

 

@Jerry Crandall (or anyone else)

 

did this new book get published yet?

[Rick K]

On 1/14/2019 at 1:43 PM, Jerry Crandall said:

There are some undocumented colors that so far no RLM documents have identified including light green. This is acknowledged by research teams that have recovered Luftwaffe fighter aircraft. They know what they are talking about when it comes to colors on a/c. One puzzle is that D-9s have been found with light gray over light green. Why?

None of these "knowledgeable researchers" had ever contacted Warnecke & Böhm the leading paint manufacturer  for Luftwaffe paint. If you don't mind, could you share the names of the German researchers you mention with us. There is some thought that light green maybe the last version of RLM 76 but the bottom line it did exist and was  used on a lot of late war aircraft. A note on the color film still, when viewing the actual film the colors are much clearer. I extend an open invitation to any interested researcher to visit our garage full of Luftwaffe fighter parts with color and collection of documents, etc. and have a face to face civil discussion. A lot of new research will be revealed the forthcoming book now in the works.

     Cheers, Jerry

I'd love a walk through your garage then teeing you up for some great discussions.  My little head might pop from all the information/education.

[David E Brown]

Gents,

 

The "large book" could be in reference to Jens Muhlig's planned publication as described on his History Colors website: https://www.historycolors.de/english/ It will cover all the colours used by the German armed forces in WW2 based on original samples, period RAL colour standard cards, documents, etc., etc. He has been working on this project for a number of years with many people assisting. It was to be published in 2020, but as Jens states on both sites the pandemic has delayed it. A later release date is planned. His Facebook page is also well worth visiting: https://www.facebook.com/search/top?q=historycolors 

 

Some may recall the discovery of documentary information by Michael Ullmann confirming that RLM 83 was "Dunkelblau". As his discovery proves, this subject continues to evolve as new information is discovered, so an open mind is necessary and helpful, as are the spirited discussions like this one that make us all think.

 

Regarding colours above RLM 83, two from the 90-series "See-farben" could fit the so-called "RLM 84" shades.  Stay tuned...

 

Best,

 

David

[D.B. Andrus]

Happy Birthday, David....albeit belatedly.

 

Cheers,

Damian

[David E Brown]

Thanks Damian,

 

I am now a senior citizen and old fart (officially that is...).

 

Cheers,

 

David

[MikeMaben]

Happy Bday Dave ...