Jerry Crandall Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 We know Michael and Jurgen well and Jurgen is going to formulate some new colors based on our recipes. But neither one had ever visited W&B. All in all you do pretty well with English being you second language. There is a lot of good information in the correspondence we have between Ken Bokelman ,that worked for Messerschmitt years ago, and Ken Merrick. Unfortunately , they both passed before any of the data came to light. BiggTim and D.B. Andrus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Crandall Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 (edited) No, having a garage full of parts with camouflage colors shows what colors were actually used Edited January 14, 2019 by Jerry Crandall RBrown, BiggTim and D.B. Andrus 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark P Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 Vincent, are you not doing the same that you question EE for doing by posting photos of your Dora gun covers on page 2 of this thread? Having original parts as reference counts for something (or you wouldn't have posted images yourself) and it is done in many books on aircraft camouflage and markings, German or any other nationality... Mark Proulx BiggTim and D.B. Andrus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John1 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 This thread has been a wonderful resource and has the potential to be a long term repository of info on this subject, as long as it doesn’t get buried. Wondering if any of the mods who come by would consider pinning this, so it won’t just fade away? BiggTim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rigor Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 Man I would love to see them parts Jerry ok I'm a weirdo like that BiggTim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark P Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 I have been fortunate enough to be in Jerry's "garage" on a couple of occasions...it is like going back in time and a great way to spend the day...not to mention the chat that ensues around the stuff! Mark Proulx rigor, D.B. Andrus, 109 and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John1 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Mark P said: I have been fortunate enough to be in Jerry's "garage" on a couple of occasions...it is like going back in time and a great way to spend the day...not to mention the chat that ensues around the stuff! Mark Proulx When's he having a Garage Sale? I would love to have an authenticated bit of a WW2 German fighter in my man cave! Especially one that comes from a know aircraft and has some remain exterior color present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSP_K2 Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 3 hours ago, John1 said: This thread has been a wonderful resource and has the potential to be a long term repository of info on this subject, as long as it doesn’t get buried. Wondering if any of the mods who come by would consider pinning this, so it won’t just fade away? Not likely. Historically, pinned threads seem to become invisible to most after a very brief time. Also, that whole concept could rater easily lead to two or three pages (or more) of nothing but pinned content, something that most folks would really prefer not to have to wade through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Vincent Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) On 1/14/2019 at 10:26 PM, Mark P said: Vincent, are you not doing the same that you question EE for doing by posting photos of your Dora gun covers on page 2 of this thread? Having original parts as reference counts for something (or you wouldn't have posted images yourself) and it is done in many books on aircraft camouflage and markings, German or any other nationality... Mark Proulx Edited February 2, 2019 by Vincent/MDC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wackyracer Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 http://mrpaint.sk/farby/lietadla/Luftwaffe?product_id=116 http://mrpaint.sk/farby/lietadla/Luftwaffe?product_id=252 http://mrpaint.sk/farby/lietadla/Luftwaffe?product_id=245 the 3 variations of rlm76 offered by Mr Paint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark P Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Wackyracer said: http://mrpaint.sk/farby/lietadla/Luftwaffe?product_id=116 http://mrpaint.sk/farby/lietadla/Luftwaffe?product_id=252 http://mrpaint.sk/farby/lietadla/Luftwaffe?product_id=245 the 3 variations of rlm76 offered by Mr Paint Ummmm….actually no. The first link takes you to RLM 76 Lichtblau. The next two links take you to Grunblau and Blaugrun, both marketed as German Late War with no reference to RLM 76. The later two greens in your link are also provided w/o RLM designation. Mark Proulx Edited January 15, 2019 by Mark P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padraic Conway Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Vincent/MDC said: I believe what needs to be proven is that new designations were introduced and as long as this is not done, i will stick with what is known, that is the latest introduced reference was RLM83 and that every observed hue on parts and photos results from application issues of the existing references or mixes of existing reference. I will surely not use my own garage of parts to prove the existence of new references But i think this thread has reached its conclusion as far as I'm concerned, so signing off And here is the problem: you are starting your exploration here with a conclusion - 'I believe what needs to be proven is...' and also that 'every observed hue on parts .. results from application issues of the existing references' . My background is in academia, teaching undergraduate students how to conduct research. Gathering evidence with an open mind is an essential component of this process (as it is here), and we should all be open to new ideas and possibilities (although I agree with you that these need to be adequately supported by the evidence), especially when these don't support our beliefs. Selectively employing some evidence, yet ignoring evidence that doesn't fit a pre-existing idea, simply leads to the conclusion that you started with, but no more. This approach results here in you only accepting any evidence that you feel supports your (already decided) conclusions. For example your FW190D-9 parts appear to confirm your hypothesis that 76 sometimes had poor binders, so you are happy with that idea, but you then dismiss any evidence that counters your conclusion (such as Matts power egg pic and caption, Jerry's examples and pictures and the Fw 190pics). Radu recently demonstrated the need for us to suspend our pre-existing ideas about late war Luftwaffe colours when he provided a very compelling argument that what we tend to see as 81/82 on late war airframes is really 70/71 even though this idea runs counter to the convention of late war colours. I'm quite prepared to say here that I changed my perspective on the issue as a direct result of his ideas. We all do well if we keep our minds receptive to new ideas. Hopefully you haven't signed off this post - it would be good to continue the discussion. Padraic Edited January 15, 2019 by Padraic Conway D.B. Andrus, mattlow and Troy Molitor 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattlow Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 I think if the terminology was clarified (colour/hue/formula/RLM designation) there's not really any disagreement here...? I don't know if it is being done, but surely we are now at the stage where these various hues of paint need to be analysed chemically to ascertain if there are differences in composition/ratios and if that would make a difference to the fresh paint's appearance and whether it would affect the way the paint behaved after application. I'd also be interested to know what effects the long term (75 years or so) exposure to anaerobic muds, deep water/silt etc had on the paint. It'd be fascinating to make up new batches of the paints and expose them to different conditions/preparations etc to see how they react. Finally, whilst not for one moment belittling the research that is going on into what the paint was and why it looked the way it did, from a modelling perspective if its in the place where RLM 76 was officially sanctioned to be put but it's white-ish, yellowy or green tinted it doesn't matter, we just replicate it (though telling these hes apart in B/W photographs must be close to impossible). If however, at some point, we can isolate these various hues to specific time periods, from specific production facilities we can make more intelligent guesses about what colours to paint our models. Has there been any correlation between the various hues and aircraft types or factories? Matt Padraic Conway, D.B. Andrus, Troy Molitor and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.B. Andrus Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 26 minutes ago, mattlow said: Has there been any correlation between the various hues and aircraft types or factories? Excellent question, Matt. Research has been done regarding camouflage patterns from different factories, ie. Jerry Crandall - FW 190D & Tomas Poruba -109G-10/K4 - FW 190D, however, research regarding hues, if possible, is still yet to be pursued in a thorough manner. Beginning with Poruba's "Green" paint in a can marked 81from the WNF/Diana facility and Crandall's still of the power egg with unusual blue, green, etc. colors, we may have a start in winkling out which factory used which hue when. Thanks to those with primary sources, a/c parts and a love of the subject more clarity may be forthcoming. Cheers, D.B. Padraic Conway and Troy Molitor 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wackyracer Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 5 hours ago, Mark P said: Ummmm….actually no. The first link takes you to RLM 76 Lichtblau. The next two links take you to Grunblau and Blaugrun, both marketed as German Late War with no reference to RLM 76. The later two greens in your link are also provided w/o RLM designation. Mark Proulx Oh OK. I use all 3 depending upon what stage in the war or profile? RLM76 up to 44 then either of the other 2 for late stuff according to profiles etc. the more grey blue one is just that and the other a nice rendition of the greeny 'sky' version the discussion is about? Just posted them up here as I thought the discussion was about finding paints to re-create our builds that's all. Cheers D.B. Andrus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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