Semi, Dull and Flat

[Padubon]

I have been in the hobby for a while and I try to match the paint shine of any particular model in comparison to the real thing. 

I work with US Army CH-47s and back when we had the D model, I noticed that one of our birds, due to number of factors, had roughly 17 tones of Green. Some were shiny and some completely flat.

During any particular club show, there is always a model with a perfect flat coat. How is it done?

I have never build a model with a completely flat finish for fear of the “dusty effect”.

Again, how is it done? And what ratios of thinner vs finishing coat?

Thanks gents.

[John1]

1 hour ago, Padubon said:

I have been in the hobby for a while and I try to match the paint shine of any particular model in comparison to the real thing. 

I work with US Army CH-47s and back when we had the D model, I noticed that one of our birds, due to number of factors, had roughly 17 tones of Green. Some were shiny and some completely flat.

During any particular club show, there is always a model with a perfect flat coat. How is it done?

I have never build a model with a completely flat finish for fear of the “dusty effect”.

Again, how is it done? And what ratios of thinner vs finishing coat?

Thanks gents.

Many different ways to skin this cat (oh dear, I hope PITA won't be kicking down my door).  Some folks say that a totally flat finish doesn't look realistic.   I'd say for a US Army helo, it absolutely does but for any other subject, I'd add in a small bit of gloss.

 

My preferred flat coat is Testor's Dullcoate  applied roughly 50-50 with their lacquer thinner.   It provides a very flat finish.   Just go slowly and apply light coats.  

 

As I mentioned, there are many other options out there, I'm sure others will have some other approaches. 

Edited December 15, 2018 by John1

[Padubon]

48 minutes ago, John1 said:

Many different ways to skin this cat (oh dear, I hope PITA won't be kicking down my door).  Some folks say that a totally flat finish doesn't look realistic.   I'd say for a US Army helo, it absolutely does but for any other subject, I'd add in a small bit of gloss.

 

My preferred flat coat is Testor's Dullcoate  applied roughly 50-50 with their lacquer thinner.   It provides a very flat finish.   Just go slowly and apply light coats.  

 

As I mentioned, there are many other options out there, I'm sure others will have some other approaches. 

 

Ohhhhh! When I used dullcoate in the past, I thinned with enamel thinner. 

Mill give it a shot.

About the animals thing, I love animals, especially medium rare.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Padubon
Misspelled

[ringleheim]

8 hours ago, Padubon said:

I have been in the hobby for a while and I try to match the paint shine of any particular model in comparison to the real thing. 

I work with US Army CH-47s and back when we had the D model, I noticed that one of our birds, due to number of factors, had roughly 17 tones of Green. Some were shiny and some completely flat.

During any particular club show, there is always a model with a perfect flat coat. How is it done?

I have never build a model with a completely flat finish for fear of the “dusty effect”.

Again, how is it done? And what ratios of thinner vs finishing coat?

Thanks gents.

There are 2 things you can do to avoid the "dusty effect" while still flattening the finish of your paint work.

First, don't use straight up flat" clear.  Use "gloss" clear, that is flattened with the addition of X number of drops of flat.  I find straight up flat clear to be too strong and cloudy.  You can play around with ratios and shoot on some test subjects to see what you like. 

 

Second, a lot of modelers seem to use clear coats close to "straight up" out of the bottle or un-thinned.  I don't know how they do it.

 

I heavily thin my clear coats so that it is impossible to get orange peel or cracking or lots of other problems that come from using an application that is too thick.

 

If you slowly mist on heavily thinned clear that is maybe 50% gloss clear and 50% flat clear, you will very subtly affect the shine of the subject matter.  You can slowly add layers as you see fit until the level of dullness is what you want. 

 

It's very hard to overdo it and end up with that dusty appearance with this approach.

 

 

[Padubon]

49 minutes ago, ringleheim said:

There are 2 things you can do to avoid the "dusty effect" while still flattening the finish of your paint work.

First, don't use straight up flat" clear.  Use "gloss" clear, that is flattened with the addition of X number of drops of flat.  I find straight up flat clear to be too strong and cloudy.  You can play around with ratios and shoot on some test subjects to see what you like. 

 

Second, a lot of modelers seem to use clear coats close to "straight up" out of the bottle or un-thinned.  I don't know how they do it.

 

I heavily thin my clear coats so that it is impossible to get orange peel or cracking or lots of other problems that come from using an application that is too thick.

 

If you slowly mist on heavily thinned clear that is maybe 50% gloss clear and 50% flat clear, you will very subtly affect the shine of the subject matter.  You can slowly add layers as you see fit until the level of dullness is what you want. 

 

It's very hard to overdo it and end up with that dusty appearance with this approach.

 

 

 

What do you use?

[Padubon]

31 minutes ago, Jennings Heilig said:

One thing to keep in mind is, with *very* few exceptions (modern US Army helicopters being about the only one I can think of off hand), even "flat" painted military aircraft aren't dead flat by a long shot.  They almost all have some degree of sheen to them.  During WWII it wasn't that uncommon on either the Allied or the German side for crew chiefs to wax their fighter aircraft for better performance.  Look at photos and build what you see.

 

 

 

You are correct. Hub Zemke in his book about the 56th Wolfpack said that some of the pilots polished their airplanes to get “a couple of extra miles”.

Currently I am building a P-40K used in Tunisia. One reference picture shows the plane with a little shine, the other is totally flat. I know that light, angle and possibly dust may have been the difference. 

 

 

 

 

[MikeMaben]

A matt surface is matt because it has hills and valleys while gloss has none.

If you wind up with a dusty surface , hit it with either a very fine sand paper,

a buffer (like the ones the wifey uses) or an old T-shirt. Knocks down the hills.

I use MRP Super Clear Matt - 127 and buff randomly for a surface like the one

you described on the helo.

 

 

[gunnyax]

Jennings is spot on. I think Matt only excist in the modelworld. I use Mr paint semi gloss or semi Matt.

[Ryan]

  On 12/15/2018 at 5:03 PM, ringleheim said:

There are 2 things you can do to avoid the "dusty effect" while still flattening the finish of your paint work.

First, don't use straight up flat" clear.  Use "gloss" clear, that is flattened with the addition of X number of drops of flat.  I find straight up flat clear to be too strong and cloudy.  You can play around with ratios and shoot on some test subjects to see what you like. 

 

Second, a lot of modelers seem to use clear coats close to "straight up" out of the bottle or un-thinned.  I don't know how they do it.

 

I heavily thin my clear coats so that it is impossible to get orange peel or cracking or lots of other problems that come from using an application that is too thick.

 

If you slowly mist on heavily thinned clear that is maybe 50% gloss clear and 50% flat clear, you will very subtly affect the shine of the subject matter.  You can slowly add layers as you see fit until the level of dullness is what you want. 

 

It's very hard to overdo it and end up with that dusty appearance with this approach.

 

On 12/15/2018 at 5:54 PM, Padubon said:

 

What do you use?

 

 

I share this question too, what products do you use Mr Ringleheim?

 

Ryan

Edited January 8, 2019 by Ryan

[Dainis]

How does "scale effect "enter into this? My take on this is the larger the scale the more "shiny" ,if I may use the term, the model should be all things being equal. This is just my anecdotal observation. A 1/72 weathered North African Spit vs the same large scale Spit probably should have a different specular depth. ( I hope  I used the term specular in the correct way!). I would like to hear some opinions on scale effect, because it is largely a matter of opinion and even taste on the modeller's personal preference on a more glossy or more matt finish. I am never quite sure what the appropriate amount of gloss/matt varnish to employ.  I kinda guess.

[Padubon]

11 hours ago, Dainis said:

How does "scale effect "enter into this? My take on this is the larger the scale the more "shiny" ,if I may use the term, the model should be all things being equal. This is just my anecdotal observation. A 1/72 weathered North African Spit vs the same large scale Spit probably should have a different specular depth. ( I hope  I used the term specular in the correct way!). I would like to hear some opinions on scale effect, because it is largely a matter of opinion and even taste on the modeller's personal preference on a more glossy or more matt finish. I am never quite sure what the appropriate amount of gloss/matt varnish to employ.  I kinda guess.

 

I work on US Army helicopters and the original paint, when new, is as flat as can be, I can say that to the touch it almost feels like fine grit sand paper. With time some surfaces change due to oil, grease, handling, weather, etc. It makes the surfaces shiny as if polished.

[Dainis]

That's interesting. Almost counterintuitive. An original matt finish getting some "shine" after wear and a somewhat shiny finish going towards matt after a time. Thanks for the first hand knowledge. Cheers!

[Out2gtcha]

That is the way I sometimes handle weathered paint; apply a stark flat paint or clear and hand polish it a bit for a semi-gloss sheen, but only in certain areas.

[Dainis]

I actually have tried that to some extent. Even before I decal I often very fine sand the paint to give different depth to the paint for the illusion of wear. I will try your technique on the hasegawa f4 trop I'm about to start.

[MikeMaben]

Gotta do it to the decals too. Light coat of flat , then buff here and there

or the decals will stand out too shiny.