WNW Albatros DV 'Richthofen'

[vince14]

On 7/13/2018 at 2:00 AM, Fred Jack said:

I have a bunch of Dr.1s, both Roden and Hobbycraft. With available Pheon decals, aftermarket machine guns, Wooden props, interiors, etc..., WnWs could not improve what I already have. As far as the Baron, I am not so keen on him. Most of his kills were green pilots. He liked to fly above the fighting looking for these young pilots and murder them. That ended up being his demise. It was going after a new pilot that got the Baron killed. As far as history shows, the Baron only shot down one Ace. Even though the Baron was flying a superior plane, it was one of the longest dogfights in WW1 history. It ended after the ace had retired from the fight, when the Baron chased and shot down the DH.2. It was the hype of the German Press that made the Baron seem better than he was. This was partially due to the fact that the Baron was Royalty.

I think you're being rather unfair on von Richthofen. Shooting down enemy aircraft was his job (indeed, it was the job of any scout pilot on either side). It was hardly von Richthofen's fault if a number of those he shot down were less experienced or were in inferior aircraft. 'Ace vs. Ace' combat was an extremely rare occurrence. If you study the records of the aces of both sides, you'll find that the majority built up their kills by shooting down less-experienced pilots in inferior aircraft, usually two-seaters.

 

There's no evidence that MvR 'liked to fly above the fighting looking for these young pilots and murder them'. If you read the combat accounts of the time, you'll find that he led his fellow pilots into the fight, not sitting above it waiting for some newcomer to come along. Albert Ball and James McCudden both specialised in hunting down lone German two-seater aircraft and attacking them when the odds were entirely in their favour - indeed, both liked to approach them from below and behind, out of the view of the observer, and kill them at close range. Were they murdering these people, or fighting a war?

 

It's also not true that von Richthofen's fame was down to him being 'royalty'. He was a member of the nobility, yes, but so too were significant portions of the German officer corps. He wasn't a member of the royal family, he was a Freiherr (Baron), a title which applied equally to all male-line descendants of the original grantee in perpetuity: All legitimate sons of a Freiherr shared his title and rank, and could be referred to as Freiherr.

 

MvR's fame owes much to the media of the time, yes - but then again, so to do Voss, Berthold, Bockle, Immelmann, Rickenbacker, Ball, McCudden, Bishop...

 

People have this romanticised view of WWI aviation, that it was all 'Knights of the Sky' dogfights between aces and waving nobly at a gallant foe instead of shooting them down if they had run out of ammunition. The reality is that it was a brutal, violent kill-or-be-killed environment where you took every advantage that you could, or it might be you burning to death in the air.

Edited July 14, 2018 by vince14

[DeanKB]

I don't understand those who proclaim themselves huge Fokker Triplane fans, yet refuse to build Rodens or Encores kit, saying only a WNW kit will suffice.

 

Surely, build the kit that's available now, and build the WNW kit if and when it's released?

[Fred Jack]

Vince 14, as far as royalty was concerned, McCudden was shunned because he was a commoner.  A lot of American pilots were shunned if they weren’t Ivyleague. Also my accounts of the Baron flying above came from the reports of British Pilots. Roy Brown studied the Baron and knew about this aspect that lead to the plan to get the Baron. Rickenbacker ended up facing the Baron and watched the Baron suddenly take off for home. My dad knew Rickenbacker. I didn’t make any of this up. The Baron had become a myth and still is. It’s a Century after his death and there are no longer any pilots to talk to, and most of the accounts are sitting in museum basements and are no longer being published. When I was young in the fifties, there were a lot more available. I do watch YouTube and am astounded by the errors being shown as fact. Remember, most of Europe were Monarchies, and was started by the assasonatiion of a Monarch. Don’t say that the fact that the Baron was royalty, had nothing to do with his being Newsworthy. He made the news almost immediately upon taking to the skies. How many German Aces do we know every plane each flew or if observers, who their pilot was? As far as the British, until 1918, no pilot was even mentioned in the News. Other than the Lafayette Escadrille, only a couple American pilots made the News. Up until the release of certain publications, only a small handful of German Pilots were common knowledge. They were Immelmann, Boelke, Voss, Udet, and the Baron. Even Goering wasn’t well know as a WW1 Ace. Of all those aces I just mentioned, only the Baron was the most known, even before being an Ace, and only the Baron’s upbringing known by everyone. Does anyone know of the private lives of any other German, French, or British pilot? As far as my knowledge, my dad got me started in WW1 aviation in 1956. He gave me all kinds of books, diaries, autobiographies, biographies, and pictures all are out of print. I even had an original large book on Airplanes of WW1 written during WW1 and released in 1919. There were pictures of falling crews as their planes went down in flames. Most were destroyed in a flood, the others donated by my mother while I was in the Army along with all my WW1 models.

Edited July 15, 2018 by Fred Jack

[vince14]

I don't mean to sound harsh, but...

 

- McCudden wasn't shunned by anyone. There's no evidence of it in either his book or in the surviving correspondence from him to his family.

- Roy Brown never came up with a plan to shoot down MvR. It's complete nonsense, probably made up post-war to lend credence to Brown's claim of shooting down MvR.

- It is impossible for Rickenbacker to have met MvR in the air. They were stationed 200 miles apart from each other during April 1918.

- MvR was newsworthy because, after 13 April 1917, he overtook Boeckle to become the leading ace of WWI. Did his nobility help in his fame? Probably a little, but not to the extent you're making out.

- 'You say ' How many German Aces do we know every plane each flew or if observers, who their pilot was' - well, quite a lot. I suggest you read The Blue Max Airmen series by Lance Bronnenkant.

- The German media was making stars out of their airmen long before MvR took to the skies.

- The RFC and RNAS didn't want the names of their personnel released in the media for much of the war. That doesn't mean that their exploits weren't reported on, though - people like Ball were referred to in the newspapers as 'Captain A' and the like.

- 'Up until the release of certain publications, only a small handful of German Pilots were common knowledge' - would those publications include the Sanke Cards depicting hundreds of German pilots that were released during the war? People might have forgotten some of the names by the 1950's, but they were extremely well known both during and just after the war. They were the 'sporting heroes' of their day.

 

There's plenty of information on the private lives of WWI airmen out there. For starters, both MvR and McCudden published autobiographies before their deaths. Immelmann had his biography written by his brother after he died. Almost every issue of Cross & Cockade Journal contains details of the private life of an airman to a greater or lesser degree - the current issue (Vol. 49/2) contains a short biography of an Austro-Hungarian pilot, and fifteen pages covering the life of a Canadian pilot.

[Fred Jack]

I realized that I am a hypocrite. Here I was talking down the Dr1 when one of my all time two seaters is an RE-8. If you turned port, the plane went into an unrecoverable spin. If you turned starboard the engine caught on fire.. this was what the crews said of the RE-8. Actually it was either too stable or too unstable. The truth was that it was very easy prey, but with the right pilot, it was as good as a Bristol F-2b. Just like a Dr1 under the right pilot.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Fred Jack

[Fred Jack]

Vince14, McCudden WAS bared from various squadrons even after he became an Ace. You said it yourself that many German aces were well known during the war and shortly afterwards, but only in Germany. By 1950 they were pretty much forgotten. I know because I got into WW1aviation in the fifties. We didn’t have those books you referred to. The problem I had, was the US and England were still anti German, and even today the British are still discriminatory to commoners. Of course books written by McCudden wouldn’t bring this up. If you were being ostracized, would you bring it up? As far as Rickenbacker meeting the Baron, it’s in Rickenbacker Autobiography. Also to prove your point about knowing a German Pilot whose every plane we know of, name a pilot and list all his planes. Also when a new pilot flying as an observer, name his pilot, like the baron’s was.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Fred Jack

[spacewolf]

 I'm finding this a VERY interesting thread ! I've been reading about and building WW I models sense the 60's, have read extensively  and hope that I might contribute to the conversation. I will preface my comments by saying that I am by no means an expert, nor do I know the other conversants or their level of expertise.

 

One item mentioned was status... certainly that played a part. What many don't realize is that social status was  big thing at that time. It is very much glossed over in most histories but is there if you dig.... remnants of it existed in WW II in the RAF where Sgt pilots were from the ranks and had to have their own messes because they (God forbid !) couldn't be allowed to mix with the officer pilots. It is touched on in several books if you know what to look for. It wasn't made a big thing because anyone who did got squashed very quickly... It ' just wasn't done'... It was perhaps most famously brought to the front in the movie 'The Blue Max'... dramatized ? yes, but not uncommon. The world was very much in violent transition and aristocracies were fighting viciously to hold onto their status just as the wave of the common man that was building would strip those privileges away

 

Frank Jack, I felt your comments were rather unfair and there was a sense of anger/ contempt to them in your first post. Yes, MvR was a hunter and looked for 'easy prey'.. he admitted it in his own writings. That being said so were many of the highest scoring pilots on both sides. Rene' Fonck of France was similar and unlike MvR, was loathed by his fellow pilots.. more because he kept to himself, was  distant, arrogant, even abrasive to his comrads ...unlike Guynemer who liked to 'mix it up' in a fight. Many pilots loved the 'easy kill' and took it where ever they could get it. Cecil Lewis in his book 'Sagittarious Rising' described in great detail one such event and saw nothing wrong with sneaking up and shooting the opposing pilot in the back. Duncan Grinnell-Milne in 'Wind in the Wires' openly talked about the things that are being touched on in this thread.

 

I have many others I could quote but interestingly, the only books that seem to almost breath hate and loathing are those of American pilots. I have as I said read extensively from German, British, Belgian, Italian and other sources and have almost never run across the hate and need for vengeance that I've read in American texts... which seems odd given that they were late comers to the war.

 

So, to round up this rambling I think the discussion is good as we all bring info to the fore that others may not have known. It was another time, another place, social values were different and propaganda was used on both sides to exalt or vilify ... wading through the romanticism and myth can be messy, but to my mind is vitally important.

[vince14]

11 hours ago, Fred Jack said:

Also to prove your point about knowing a German Pilot whose every plane we know of, name a pilot and list all his planes.

Max von Muller:

Otto Pusher Biplane No. 1127 (6-18 Aug 1914)

LVG B.I (9 Oct to 19 Dec 1914)

Albatros B.I (20 Dec 1914 to Apr 1915)

LVG C.I (May to early August 1915)

Ago C.I No. 94/15 (Early August 1915 to April 1916)

Fokker E.I (April to mid-May 1916 - it's possible that this was actually a Pfalz E.I)

Fokker E.II or E.III No. 111/15 (mid-May to 30 Jul 1916)

Halberstadt D-Type (22-31 Aug 1916)

Albatros D.I (16 Sep 1916 to 19 Jan 1917)

Albatros D.III No. 2044/16 (Late Mar to mid Jul 1917)

Albatros D.V No. 1154/17 (24 Jul to 28 Oct 1917)

Albatros D.Va 5405/17 (Dec 1917 to 9 Jan 1918)

 

11 hours ago, Fred Jack said:

Also when a new pilot flying as an observer, name his pilot, like the baron’s was.

Emil Schaefer was paired with Freiherr von Grote in Kasta 8.

Kurt Wolff was paired with Lt. Hartmann in Kasta 26.

Eduard Dostler was paired with Lt. Paul Dorr and Lt. Hans Boes in Kampfstaffel 36b.

[vince14]

12 hours ago, Fred Jack said:

 As far as Rickenbacker meeting the Baron, it’s in Rickenbacker Autobiography.

Rickenbacker was lying, in that case. I'll say it again - MvR and Rickenbacker were stationed nearly 200 miles apart in April 1918, well out of the range of either the Fokker Dr.I or the Nieuport 28. There is only a seven day period - 14th April (the 94th's first combat) to the 21st April (MvR's death) - when an encounter between the two could ever have happened. There is no mention in the JG1 war diaries of them encountering any American aircraft in that time frame, and no mention in the 94th's of them encountering a Fokker Triplane in the same period.

 

12 hours ago, Fred Jack said:

McCudden WAS bared from various squadrons even after he became an Ace...Of course books written by McCudden wouldn’t bring this up. If you were being ostracized, would you bring it up?

I've named pilots and aircraft, can you name the squadrons McCudden was barred from?

 

Squadron commanders in the RFC had a limited amount of leeway when pilots were sent to them - and no doubt there would be some snobbery from certain quarters about McCudden's background in his earlier days - but there was no conspiracy to shun McCudden. If he really was disliked by the 'Higher Ups' because of his background, why on earth did they commission him as an Officer,  promote him all the way up to Major, award him the highest military award the country could give and then place him in command of 56 Squadron, which was was acknowledged to be one of the best RFC squadrons of the whole war?

 

12 hours ago, Fred Jack said:

and even today the British are still discriminatory to commoners

Would you care to elaborate further? Bearing in mind that I was born, raised and have spent almost all of my adult life living in Britain.

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by vince14

[Fred Jack]

IIn the 56th Squadron, upon being made B Squadron leader, he walked into the mess for lunch and was booed by the other flight officers, because they didn’t understand how, as a common working class, how he had been promoted over other pilots of the upper class. At this time,  the commander of A flight,  Major Gerald Maxwell said, “At that time, I’m afraid we just didn’t realize Macs value” . Out of shame McCudden left the 56th to await a new Squadron and flew back to England to be a flight instructor. He finally got a new Squadron and flew back to the front only to fatally crash on the way.

[Fred Jack]

When I sailed on the HMS Ulster F83 to Vietnam in the Autumn of 1968, plenty of discrimination due to Class existed. I will be in England in September after visiting the Mussee de Millitaire in Brussels to photograph the several WW1 aircraft to include the last remaining Nie 17,  Halberstadt CL2 , and a LVG Vl fuselage.

[vince14]

36 minutes ago, Fred Jack said:

IIn the 56th Squadron, upon being made B Squadron leader, he walked into the mess for lunch and was booed by the other flight officers, because they didn’t understand how, as a common working class, how he had been promoted over other pilots of the upper class. At this time,  the commander of A flight,  Major Gerald Maxwell said, “At that time, I’m afraid we just didn’t realize Macs value” . Out of shame McCudden left the 56th to await a new Squadron and flew back to England to be a flight instructor. He finally got a new Squadron and flew back to the front only to fatally crash on the way.

Can you evidence that statement? Where did it come from?

 

McCudden became 56 Squadron's B flight commander on 17 August 1917, and remained there until returning to the UK on 5 March 1918. On the day before he left, over 50 Officers gathered for a formal farewell dinner and they presented him with a silver model of his S.E.5A. McCudden was invited to dine with Brigadier General John Higgins and was invited to the headquarters of General Julian Byng, General Officer Commanding the British Third Army, to be personally congratulated.

 

McCudden might have suffered some minor discrimination early on in his officer career, but he wasn't driven out of 56 Squadron and he didn't fly back to England out of shame (surely that would have constituted going AWOL, which could be punishable by death in WWI). In fact, the first time McCudden was posted back to England to be an instructor (in February 1917) he felt slightly aggrieved as he believed he was getting into his stride as a fighter pilot.

[vince14]

27 minutes ago, Fred Jack said:

When I sailed on the HMS Ulster F83 to Vietnam in the Autumn of 1968, plenty of discrimination due to Class existed. I will be in England in September after visiting the Mussee de Millitaire in Brussels to photograph the several WW1 aircraft to include the last remaining Nie 17,  Halberstadt CL2 , and a LVG Vl fuselage.

Well when you're in England I'd be delighted to show you how little the class system actually plays a part in modern life. I mean we've just let the man who is sixth in line to the throne, and one of the most popular members of the Royal family, marry an American actress, of all things.

[Gazzas]

An interesting discussion for sure.  Those of us who grew up in a truly class-less system will probably never completely understand all of the aristocracy and class nuances in either Germany or Britain at the time.  It was only in 1871 that purchasing commissions was terminated in the British Army.

 

I'm reading a study on Wilhelmine Germany and learning lots.  But still...  Who hasn't been snubbed by somebody better off, at least once?  lol

 

Gaz

[Darren Howie]

Commentary that MVR was “murdering” RFC and other pilots is completely inaccurate as it is misleading to his capability.

Aces have been shooting down(as opposed to murdering ie shooting a pilot in a parachute) new inexperienced or incapable pilots since 1914.

The rules of air combat as written by Boelcke where written because he observed the mistakes of both his victims and comrades.

Aces become aces because they survive which is a feat in its own right given the size of the dogfights and the random chance of being in the wrong place at the wrong time which he ie MVR eventually was.

The relentless schedule of combat would wear down even the most resillient.

The history of air combat has shown any new pilot is at their weakest in the first 10 missions even when highly trained with survivability going up significantly after that.

Hence the introduction of Red Flag and other hyper realistic training excercises trying to simulate those first ten missions.

how many missions for an under trained barely capable of flying recruit?

So aces on both sides took advantage in every war of this inexperience to rack up kill lists the Germans particularly in WW1 and WW2 with no return home program and plenty of cannon fodder being sent up by the RFC in WW1 and Soviets in WW2.

MVR was every bit the ace surviving hundreds of missions before fate caught up with him like it has almost every big ace who rolled the dice one to many times.

Just surviving that long while involved in so many engagements is testament to that..

 

Edited July 22, 2018 by Darren Howie