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1/18 P51C Mustang "Lopes Hope the 3rd"

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Hey Craig , does the library have any full planform or profile elevation

drawings , or are they mostly detail and assembly drawings ?

They have cross-sections and loft tables for fuselage main shapes. Factory drawings is just raw material for modellers. We need lot of additional work to get some usable for our purposes.

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Hey Craig , does the library have any full planform or profile elevation

drawings , or are they mostly detail and assembly drawings ?

 

Hi Mike,

 

Yeah Fencer-1 probably gave a much better answer than I could. I haven't specifically started looking into P-51 stuff yet, I've just seen they have a lot on there. I'm sure given the Peter will be delving in to great detail here, perhaps he'd be the better person to ask if you're after something specific. In any case, I'm sure you'll see a lot more detail on this build than 99% of the rest of us would put into theirs! :)

 

Craig

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evening folks :)

 

stand by - some actual modelling took place recently..

 

..before I get to that...

 

 


'I started by finding the appropriate structural drawings'

All from Aircorps Library?

 

Good stuff, Peter.

 

Thank you.

Sincerely,

Mark

 

 

Hi Mark - yes all the drawings I have used to date are from Aircorps - the best way to navigate it is to use the parts manual on there to find the part number - its like googling it and getting it pulled off the shelf for you - very effective :)

 

 

 

I actually managed to skip the fact you are converting this to a malcolm hooded Mustang...! You nutter.
 
So I Googled it for more photos and found this.. which you've probably already found, but it's stunning...
 
IMG_0313-small.jpg

 

 

Hi Radleigh - that is a mighty fine picture - hopefully in a year or two I will have a model like that :) by the way, I won't be doing a Malcolm Hood, I will do it just as you see here...

 

 

Peter, why don't you customize the Corel workspace? I see that you are using metric scales and rulers and not using true scale factor.

There are four screenshots that will help you make work much easier.

 

Best wishes,

 

Alex

 

 

Hi Alex - thanks for that, I will have to try playing with the settings as at the moment I just draw in any size and scale to a dimension off the drawing in 1/18 scale..

 

 

Hi Peter,

 

I can probably get you in touch with Charlie Neeley if you are still interested in his drawings.  I have those that he offers for the P-51D but nothing for the B/C models.  I will send him a link to your thread here as I am sure he would find it quite fascinating.  Plus, as he knows the Mustang about as well as anybody walking the planet, he just might be a valuable resource for you.

 

Cheers,

Chad Veich

 

 

Hi Chad - that would be most welcome - I will drop you a PM. I did email him a while back on the address he has on P51 SIG but no response yet so anything you can do to help would be much appreciated - I really want a set of his plans to make sure I get this right :)

 

 

 

Peter, I have a question:
How true to scale is the kit fuselage you're using? What I Wonder is, when you're doing the drawings for PE and other parts, are you scaling them to absolute 1/18,or tweaking them slightly to fit any slight inaccuracies in the kit fuselage? Not sure if I'm making sense in my wording here, hopefully you get what I'm asking.

 

Hi Dan - thats a great question, and in fact I cover a bit of that in this post in a minute. Essentially I scale to the model, I don't care if it is actually exactly 1/18 or slightly off either way, it is far easier to make parts that integrate perfectly with what I have than try and compensate for any scaling issues...

 

 

 

Hey Craig , does the library have any full planform or profile elevation

drawings , or are they mostly detail and assembly drawings ?

 

 

Hi Mike - I haven't found any yet, all the drawings I can find are components - apart from the odd drawing in a manual I haven't found any proper 3 views yet..

 

 

Hey Peter, have you seen this?

 

 

 

http://warbirdsintlnow.com/index-mustangs.html

 

Kev

 

 

Hi Kev - no I hadn't, I will have to try and get a copy :)

 

So, one of the most important parts of making your own PE parts, particularly when they are major components like cockpit bulkheads, floors & instrument panels is making sure they fit the model you have in hand. I could just copy the manufacturer drawings and scale to 1/18 but I would run into issues in that either the model may not be bang on that scale, or things like the scale thickness of the fuselage skin is about the thickness of the litho I use so would not allow for the thickness GRP moulding the kit is made from (even when it is thinned down...)..

 

..the first job in this case is to get inside the fuselage and get a feel for the workspace I have to cram the cockpit into.. I set some dyno tape borders to mark out the section I will be removing to get space to work...

 

WIP40_zpseoq8gdzq.jpg

 

..then out with a 0.5mm diamond slitting disc in the dremel to cut to the boundaries - i sectioned to two fuselage station points and along the top of the wing root / bottom longeron..

 

WIP41_zps9vjdfqzt.jpg

 

..in no time I had removed the part I needed to get inside and see what the dimensions are..

 

WIP42_zpsmgosa92h.jpg

 

..unlike the Spit, the interior is thin and even and offers an easy enough opening to drop a detailed cockpit 'pod' into..

 

WIP43_zpsfghtcyvu.jpg

 

..I used my micrometer to get the actual dimensions so I get some key points of reference for scaling & designing the interior - here I know the lower longerons are 47.65mm in max width at the rearmost bulkhead I will be including...

 

WIP44_zpsfemdwpjg.jpg

 

so the process (which features a full chapter in my new book which will be out soon :) ) starts with copying a real part from the drawing library (in this case the floor part the main fuel tank sits on..)..

 

WIP37_zpsaou8bwle.jpg

 

..then scaling this to the longeron dimensions which are a blend of the dimensions of the model and the real shapes in the drawings...

 

WIP39_zpsd00w3a3z.jpg

 

..which I can repeat for all the floor parts in this case..

 

WIP36_zpsnooejslt.jpg

 

..then by saving the drawings as a PDF file, I can print them out in true scale in order to cut them out and see if they fit and any tweaks that might be needed..

 

WIP45_zpsnsw04jtf.jpg

 

..and finally before assuming I have the dimensions right a real-world test can be made with the model...  here the upper and lower longerons are being test fitted to make sure the cockpit pod will drop in perfectly in relation to it's surroundings...

 

WIP46_zpsccorwatr.jpg

 

..and thats it - I will check off the parts as I go and keep plugging away..

 

I leave you with a question - I can't find any photos of the floor without the seat fitted and I am struggling to make sense of assembling the parts that are labelled as floor parts in the library - I have all the ones in blue and think they are 'assembled' as they should be, but the only drawing I can find is of a P51D which shows a different layout even though the part numbers match the drawings I copied.

 

I know it's nearly there, but there is a big open section between number 11 and number 9 below I haven't quite made sense of..

 

WIP38_zpsafaropyk.jpg

 

over to you (hopefully :) )

 

TTFN

 

Peter

Edited by airscale

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Nice start, Peter.  Very smart work.

WIP46_zpsccorwatr.jpg

If the cap you cut out is going to fit over your assembly, why not match your mock-up to that?  It would seem to me that by matching the mock-up to the cap you know the assembly would fit.  The way you've shown seems to me there may be a match-up issue once the cap is in place.

 

WIP38_zpsafaropyk.jpg

'I can't find any photos of the floor without the seat fitted '

Is Detail 'B' of a P-51D, and not a 'B'?  Will look through my manuals to see what I can see.

 

Educational tutorial, Peter.  Great show.

 

Sincerely,

Mark

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Nice start, Peter.  Very smart work.

WIP46_zpsccorwatr.jpg

If the cap you cut out is going to fit over your assembly, why not match your mock-up to that?  It would seem to me that by matching the mock-up to the cap you know the assembly would fit.  The way you've shown seems to me there may be a match-up issue once the cap is in place.

 

WIP38_zpsafaropyk.jpg

'I can't find any photos of the floor without the seat fitted '

Is Detail 'B' of a P-51D, and not a 'B'?  Will look through my manuals to see what I can see.

 

Educational tutorial, Peter.  Great show.

 

Sincerely,

Mark

 

Hi Peter,

 

This is P-51D floor you have drawn. Look at my drawing above for correct P-51B floor layout. Details 9 and 11 are for B version, but you placed them back to front. B-model floor is pretty asymmetrical unlike almost symmetrical D model one.

Edited by Fencer-1

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'I can't find any photos of the floor without the seat fitted'

On the AirCorps Website in the P-51C Parts List, page 176, Figure 79, Item 15 is a Cover, directly below the seat.  Figure 80, page 180, shows the Pilots Seat fitted into a bracket that is attached to the center spacer between each wing.

 

I'll keep checking for more.

Sincerely,

Mark

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Peter you need drawing sheets 102-53001 for full B-model floor layout. Type the number in "Search" on Aircopslibrary site. You can also insert 102-5305  and see all separate floor details draving numbers in dropdown menu.

I also found two nice pictures from british manual with visible floor details.

 41073570962_023dfc3907_b.jpgMkIII_02 by Alexey Matvienko, on Flickr

26245270237_e526b033c4_b.jpgMkIII_03 by Alexey Matvienko, on Flickr

Edited by Fencer-1

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Peter,

 

what can I say. :hmmm:

 

 

firstly MY favorite Warbird is the MUSTANG and for you to commence such  project has ME  smiling.

:wub: :yahoo:

 

 

I see that you have gotten a lot research and technical data to your hand; and would not expect anything less from you.

:thumbsup: :clap2:

 

 

it's AWESOME to see your MUSTANG build here and I look forward to another of  your AMAZING & EPIC build. 

 

 :bow:

 

I Love that you collate as much technical data and information for your builds and this I know will be simply ASTOUNDING to see.

 

 

:bow:

 

following with much enthusiasm. :yahoo:

 

 

 

SUPER start . :clap2:

 

MARU 5137.

 

 

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evening folks :)
 
Thank you for dropping in and helping out guys - that is one of the most wonderful things about posting a WIP in forums - you get to virtually meet fantastic people prepared to invest time in helping you out :)
 
 

Hi Peter,
 
This is P-51D floor you have drawn. Look at my drawing above for correct P-51B floor layout. Details 9 and 11 are for B version, but you placed them back to front. B-model floor is pretty asymmetrical unlike almost symmetrical D model one.

 
 
Hi Fencer - thank you - I see now what I have got wrong and think I am on the right track, but we will see in a minute!
 
I said how people chip in with helpful stuff and over on Britmodeller a chap called John Terrell has been offering some incredible insight into this airframe, in fact it seems he helped Aircorps Aviation in getting the restoration right so there is no better authority to have as my wingman...
 
I am going to drop his comments in here too so the story about the airframe is shared wherever it might be seen:
 
"The restored "Lope's Hope 3rd" was done to depict the original aircraft as it would have looked during a few days in early November 1944 - specifically between November 9th and November 11th '44. The reason for this is that the black tails weren't applied on these 75th FS Mustangs until November 9, 1944 (prior to then, the squadron was just flying them essentially factory-fresh in appearance), and only a few days later, on November 11th, was Lopez's last combat mission. The dorsal fin fillet kits & Technical Order were issued in the summer of 1944 (reaching England, for instance, in early August), and it is known that they were installed on Mustangs in the CBI before November '44, so even without photographic evidence, it's just one of those things that is known to have had to have been installed. There are some photos of other 75th FS Mustangs around the same time with the dorsal fin fillets installed, and there is a well known photo of Don Lopez standing in front of the tail of a 75th FS P-51C with a dorsal fin fillet (though it is not known if it is "Lope's Hope 3rd" or not). Some artistic impressions of "Lope's Hope 3rd" have the tail number 194 applied in white on the vertical fin, which had been the tail number applied on Lopez's Mustang before the tail was painted black, but based on the research that AirCorps Aviation conducted, it was concluded that it was very likely not re-applied to the tail at least during the point in time for which the restoration depicts (some actually ended up having the number applied in black on the sides of the cowlings, rather than in white on the tail).
 
..more..
 

In these photos from the "Lope's Hope 3rd" restoration, you can see peeks of the duck cloth/canvas floor cover. It was mostly made of the same material as all of the other dust covers - like the control stick boot, the tail wheel boot, canopy cover, electrical conduit covers, etc., but it had sections of both dark green (leather?) and olive drab fabric.
 
http://www.aircorpsaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/AMG_5055.jpg
http://www.aircorpsaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/AMG_5056.jpg
 
Note that the Warren McArthur seat installed in "Lope's Hope 3rd" is painted dark dull green, as many were, rather than interior green. The seats often kept the dark dull green primer, because it stood up to wear & tear better than the interior green primer. The inside of the windscreen and instrument panel shroud was painted dark dull green as well on the P-51B/C (and as is of course the case on the restored "Lope's Hope" as well).
 
Here are some great photos to illustrate the right-side cockpit/radio controls of a CBI P-51B/C (the restored "Lope's Hope 3rd") - control boxes for the SCR-274-N radio set, and the big MN-28 control box for the MN-26 radio compass. Note, like many/most P-51B/C/D's, it had no IFF radio installed, so as was done from the factory, even though the IFF control box (labeled "Danger") was installed, it doesn't have any detonator switches installed and isn't painted anything other than interior green.
http://www.aircorpsaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/AMG_5062.jpg
http://www.aircorpsaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/AMG_5061.jpg
 
Note how all along this stretch of the right-side of the cockpit, the only difference between WWII and today is the small line of switches & breakers added just below the main electrical switch panel. The only modern avionics installed are two small gauge-sized units that install via easily removable brackets, just under the instrument panel shroud, one located on each side of the gun sight (neither adding or removing anything that wasn't present during WWII)."

 

..now lets see whether I learned anything...

 

..the first thing was getting the floor panels from the right P51 variant, in the right order.. this was helped gretaly by using the main installation drawing (once I was pointed to it..) which allowed me to understand the layout and create the parts needed.

 

The PE floor panels will serve as a guide for wood laminates so I created an underfloor part which is all the parts welded together and a few 'filler' sections so it is one contiguous part..

 

WIP47_zps9c4101c5.jpg

 

..the same drawing was scaled to give great reference (and scale) of the seat and control column.. (I turn the drawings into negatives to help me see when creating shapes on them...)

 

WIP48_zpsmwarvkna.jpg

 

..I have spent days on parts for all sorts of components - fuel tank, throttle & pitch control unit, canopy parts, cockpit switchboxes, fuselage structure & members, and have started to pull them together into a fret...

 

WIP53_zpslrog3orm.jpg

 

While this part of the preparation has some weeks to go, I think it worth sharing the process and I hope you are not bored by it :)

 

I must admit I was getting a bit fatigued, so I started to think about what 3D modelled components I might make, especially as I was working on the radio components and these lend themselves well to 3D rather than the very two dimensional things you can do with PE.

 

..I haven't used Rhino 3D for 2 years so I googled getting a free 90 day trial and even though I used an email address I had used before it all installed with no problems. I watched a few Youtube tutorials on shapes & fillets and decisded I would start messing about with something relatively simple to get me back in the groove..

 

I settled on the MN-26C Radio Compass that is immediately behind the pilot's seat.. this is the actual one in the restoration so perfect reference..

 

WIP54_zpscjmsgbql.jpg

 

..in Rhino you can import images so I found the dimensions of the radio unti in a 1940's Bendix manual and imported & scaled this photo... If you make some allowances for it not being a direct plan view you can use it as a great guide to locations & proportions..

 

...after a few vids I was soon setting out the structures..

 

WIP49_zps36pcopip.jpg

 

..and in about an hour and a half, I had the radio complete. It looks difficult but really it is not - this is just a combination of shapes joined together - at a basic level actuallybit is just circles & rectangles..

 

the premise I use is to say draw a rectangle - you then 'extrude' this which meand it takes the flat one dimensional line rectangle and gives it walls as you lift it so you create a box. Once you complete that if you have ticked the option to create a 'solid' once you finish the action it caps the top & bottom so you have a 3D box with a surface on all sides

 

..you can then round the edges (called filleting) to various degrees, or do the same extrude process with a circle to make a rod, in fact if you subtract a little rod from a big rod you make a tube..

 

all of these features can be scaled, moved, one taken from another to make different shapes etc so the only skill that is really needed is to decompose something you are looking at into basic shapes...

 

..anyways enough waffling, here it is...

 

WIP51_zpscvjupumu.jpg

 

 

WIP52_zps3d64evfl.jpg

 

..I still need to do a few little bits, and make some holes for knobs etc to be added (going too small on sticky out things doesn't take too well when it comes to 3D printing), and I also need to play around with the feet, but all in all I am happy I remembered how to do it :)

 

..on to the SCR-274 units next..

 

I will pick up some glue and actually make something one day I promise...

 

TTFN
Peter

 

 

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