Aerotech Supermarine S5

[LSP_Kevin]

That is some superb detailing, Torben!

 

Kev

[Gazzas]

Torben, that is a fascinating way to make ribs!

 

Very impressive!

 

Gaz

[malc]

When looking at references of the cockpit area the double rows rivets for the ribs are clearly visible and closely match he scale spacing I've done internally 

 

 

 

My question is about these in relation the the rear bulkhead of the cockpit. I'd expect to see a vertical line of rivets line up with the rear edge, or may be just slightly behind to take into account the thickness of the seat rear cushion and headrest so that this bulkhead would be fitted directly against a rib. From this image (although) not 100% side on the rib looks like it's set back a good 6 inch +. The best plans I have (see last post) have these cushions resting up against the rear bulkhead. 

 

From what the external rivet lines are indicating the only possible conclusions I can glean is that:

1. Either the bulkhead is not fitted completely flush with the cockpit surround but set back to the near rearmost row of rivets and the the headrest (and seat rear cushion?) is deep enough to just show slightly in front of the cockpit surround.

2. The rear bulkhead is somehow fixed to the same rearmost rib but in such a way that it's not riveted to the fuselage skin and set forward so it is flush with the cockpit opening.

 

From all the images/videos I can see point 2 is the most likely as I can only see what appears to be flush fitted bulkhead in the headrest area - it that case I'm surprised it has no external riveting in line. Any thoughts, ideas, insights most welcome.

 

Torben

 

Hi Torben,

 

Super work as always.

 

About the seat, is it possible the seat is supported on a frame that projects forward of the bulkhead (like a spitfire)? To allow the seat to be raised for take off?

Lots of images on Google showing the Spitfire seat frame!

 

Malc.

[Hubert Boillot]

The "seat" was minimal in nature, nothinh more than two planks ... No real need for lateral support, the very narrow fuselage provided this without problems .

 

Having looked at pics of the S6B, I would believe that the headrest was suspended to the frame marked by the rivet line, protruding forward of this "line". I am not even sure (quite sure of the contratry in fact) that there was anything like a bulkhead at the level of this frame. Just the headrest, and the back of the seat ...

 

As for the belts, again a conjecture, but I'd support the lap-belt idea.

 

Hubert

[TorbenD]

Thx again for looking in and commenting Juraj, Kev and Gaz... in for for a penny, in for a pound...

 

 

Hi Torben,

 

Super work as always.

 

About the seat, is it possible the seat is supported on a frame that projects forward of the bulkhead (like a spitfire)? To allow the seat to be raised for take off?

Lots of images on Google showing the Spitfire seat frame!

 

Malc.

 

The "seat" was minimal in nature, nothinh more than two planks ... No real need for lateral support, the very narrow fuselage provided this without problems .

 

Having looked at pics of the S6B, I would believe that the headrest was suspended to the frame marked by the rivet line, protruding forward of this "line". I am not even sure (quite sure of the contratry in fact) that there was anything like a bulkhead at the level of this frame. Just the headrest, and the back of the seat ...

 

As for the belts, again a conjecture, but I'd support the lap-belt idea.

 

Hubert

 

Thanks Malc and Hubert (again) - Malc, the hi-res version of those plans you sent me last night have helped clarify a number of details especially with the cockpit - thanks again, really helpful.

 

Hubert is spot on in that there was no seat, just the aforementioned planks with a (Chesterfield sofa style) leather back rest and matching headrest. From the videos I've also worked out that there were was look like shoulder cushions/padding loosely attached to the rear of cockpit wall sides - the S6 cockpit photo a couple of posts back also seem to show this.

 

What I hadn't realised  until you pointed it out Hubert (after Malc's prompting) is that there is probably no solid bulkhead behind the back rest as modelled in the kit (maybe a small one behind the headrest) but the backrest is likely to be attached to the next set of ribs back, possibly set forward off some horizontal frames like the Spitfire without any of the redundant height adjustment hinging. At least I assume that's what you mean Hubert? 

 

Hmmm What to do...? Whilst the back rest covers much of the area knowing me and all the effort gone on so far I'm going to see if I can address this somehow. 

 

Cheers again,

Torben

[TorbenD]

Seatbelts- not exactly definitive but in the Schneider cockpit scenes from First of the Few, David Niven does not appear to be wearing any shoulder strap

 

Had a quick peak Jumpjack - it's the icing on the cake,    lap belts it is 

 

Torben

[RLWP]

Hmmm What to do...

 

Ignore it, forget it, carry on blindly, stick your fingers in your ears and go la-la-la-la-la

 

This the proper course of action, no-one will ever know

 

Of course, I know you are going to chop out the bulkhead somehow

 

Richard

[TorbenD]

Ignore it, forget it, carry on blindly, stick your fingers in your ears and go la-la-la-la-la

 

This the proper course of action, no-one will ever know

 

Of course, I know you are going to chop out the bulkhead somehow

 

Richard

 

Am I that transparent? 

[RLWP]

Am I that transparent? 

 

Well, sort of. I have the same affliction

[Hubert Boillot]

Thx again for looking in and commenting Juraj, Kev and Gaz... in for for a penny, in for a pound...

 

 

 

 

Thanks Malc and Hubert (again) - Malc, the hi-res version of those plans you sent me last night have helped clarify a number of details especially with the cockpit - thanks again, really helpful.

 

Hubert is spot on in that there was no seat, just the aforementioned planks with a (Chesterfield sofa style) leather back rest and matching headrest. From the videos I've also worked out that there were was look like shoulder cushions/padding loosely attached to the rear of cockpit wall sides - the S6 cockpit photo a couple of posts back also seem to show this.

 

What I hadn't realised  until you pointed it out Hubert (after Malc's prompting) is that there is probably no solid bulkhead behind the back rest as modelled in the kit (maybe a small one behind the headrest) but the backrest is likely to be attached to the next set of ribs back, possibly set forward off some horizontal frames like the Spitfire without any of the redundant height adjustment hinging. At least I assume that's what you mean Hubert? 

 

Hmmm What to do...? Whilst the back rest covers much of the area knowing me and all the effort gone on so far I'm going to see if I can address this somehow. 

 

Cheers again,

Torben

 

Yes, exactly ...

 

Hubert

[Alain Gadbois]

Hi Torben,

I also think there is no bulkhead behind the back rest, as it seems by looking at the drawings (they are in an Aircraft Archive book I have). For the seat belts, my first opinion was no shoulder belts, but the black and white photo of the S6 in the previous page clearly shows them. The strange thing about the seat is impression that the pilot is sitting directly on the cockpit floor! 

 

Alain

[TorbenD]

Hi Torben,

I also think there is no bulkhead behind the back rest, as it seems by looking at the drawings (they are in an Aircraft Archive book I have). For the seat belts, my first opinion was no shoulder belts, but the black and white photo of the S6 in the previous page clearly shows them. The strange thing about the seat is impression that the pilot is sitting directly on the cockpit floor! 

 

Alain

 

Thanks Alain - I'm definitely going with just lap belts and no bulkhead now... Shame I'd just stuck in all the ribbing before realising    That said, the belts around the joystick in that S6 ref do look a bit like the heavy eyelets one gets on the shoulder straps a Sutton Harness    

 

Regarding the seat.... ain't no padding accept what nature provided... talk about flying by the seat of your pants!

 

Torben

[TorbenD]

Greetings all,

 

It's a case of one step back and a tentative couple forward...

 

As just mentioned before the error of my ways regarding the distinct lack of bulkhead behind the seat backrest cushion had been highlighted I'd just stuck the previously made ribbing sections on so this made the extension somewhat more tricky.

 

First up to mark up the minimum extra I'd need to remove in order to show this off but at the same time not so deep that it became a pointless exercise as not much will be visible beyond the first one or two ribs behind the backrest once everything is in shadow. By this point the sidewalls of the cockpit were becoming dangerously thin so I also attached some thick plastic card to where the radiator panel inserts are which once the fuselage is permanently joined will be sanded right back to the correct profile as I intend to add much slimmer, scratchbuilt  radiator ribs once it}s all fared in.

 

 

 

 

Fortunately I hadn't yet added the ribbing to the floor so this was a bit easier to mark and then carve out. The only issue being that I had already glued in a thin section of 10thou for the main section which I didn't want to damage.

 

 

Some time (and a lot of profanity) later... Voila!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Phew!! I think.... Hmm... In an ideal world I would have a perfectly flowing, visually smooth curving line flowing between the ribs above and below the spar-line on the section join, it kinda kinks visually at the most side-on viewing angles, especially towards the rear so I need to sleep on that as from most angles the match up and visual flow is good.

 

 

 

 

 

The only fix would be to redo the base section completely and adjust the curve so it has more vertical sides... 

 

Oh I forgot to mention I had to tweak the relative position of the top and base halves of the cockpit before doing all of the above so that the rear of the cockpit moved back about 2mm. The model has this lining up with the trailing edge of the wing where as photos and some plans show it set back a short way.

 

 

Thanks for looking,

 

Torben

[Hubert Boillot]

Looks very good like this. Considering how tiny the cockpit opening is, and the fact that the seat plank will hinder any line of view continuity, I'd "rest on my laurels" and leave it as is .

 

hey, I am getting better at it this time, am I not ? No extra-work-inducing remark ...

 

Hubert

[TorbenD]

Looks very good like this. Considering how tiny the cockpit opening is, and the fact that the seat plank will hinder any line of view continuity, I'd "rest on my laurels" and leave it as is .

 

hey, I am getting better at it this time, am I not ? No extra-work-inducing remark ...

 

Hubert

 

Much better Hubert, you are the conscience sitting on my shoulder    - There is also some piping for the coolant out to the wings which should also help disguise any optical kinking.

 

On with the seat... The kit supplied seat now wouldn't quite cut the mustard size wise plus I also wanted to see it I could improve on the refinement of the cast metal original. I faced the problem of creating a miniature a block pattern quilted leather back rest with covered buttons 

 

My first attempt of drilling and carving into a thin rolled slab of set Milliput did not turn out great - all four times i tried it.... 

 

 

I realised I needed to get the grid of the buttons absolutely spot on or it would not look right. So, starting with a slightly oversized sheet of 60thou plastic sheet I started to try and punch out a grid of 6 x 6 buttoned sized holes (0.5mm) with my punch and die set. Try as I might, even using every trick I could think of I couldn't get a perfectly aligned square grid of 36 holes - it only takes one hole being the merest fraction of a mm off in any direction to ruin the whole effect. 

 

Drilling came next - I do not own a vertical drill stand, let alone one with an accurate way of moving the bed by set increments so all my attempts with a drill would have to done by hand/eye. I finally figured out a way to do it by again taking a a slightly oversized sheet of 60thou plastic sheet and carefully scoring in a square grid of the right size with a scalpel - this again took four attempts to do to the standard required but once all squared up I used the point of pin held in a hand vice as an awl to mark the centre of each crossing point.

 

 

Using these as a start point I hand drilled each hole with a 0.5mm bit. 

 

Using the scored grid as guide the next stage was to very carefully start carving out the pillowed shapes of each grid. This was done very carefully with micro chisels, dental burrs both ball and cone shaped, files and a small curved scalpel blade. The key to doing this evenly and well was to use good visual reference, go at it very slowly repeating each very minor filing, burr twiddle/turning, scrape of the scalpel, over the whole of the area before repeating if needed or stopping and moving on to the next process. Everything done b hand - if I'd have tried my dremel even on it's slowest setting I would have easily ruined it. 

 

Once happy with the shape I painted on a touch of liquid glue to dissolve any remaining plastic waft and dust as well as help soften/round off any remaining micro facets.

 

 

 

More in a mo,

 

Torben

Edited April 25, 2018 by TorbenD