Starfighter Jock Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 God I love this site, it is like dinner and a show! KJ David66, dmthamade, Bill_S and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Palimaka Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 God I love this site, it is like dinner and a show! KJ Best comment so far! Still, pretty tame compared to some sites. David66, dmthamade and Starfighter Jock 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radub Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Jennings, I have the wing preparation specs. I have the manuals. I have those famous photos taken on the production linem I have absolutely no doubt that the wings were puttied and lacquered. What I question is YOUR understandimg of the outcome of the process. You are under the misapprehension that the process yielded "piano finish" without a mark. Plenty of photos, wartime and postwar, show that the panel lines remained. I think that slapping a credibility ban on all surviving airframes is idiotic. One, two, maybe, but all of them? Let' be serious! Radu David66 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.B. Andrus Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Did this place suddenly turn into ________? What's with the attitudes? Very off-putting. Artful69, LSP_K2 and BiggTim 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefenders Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) My two cents. I saw an interview of Col. Bud Anderson a while back, in which he said that his ground crew scrubbed his aircraft with gasoline to get camo paint off of it. Now if that doesn't get rid of lacquer and putty, I don't know what does. Edited February 17, 2017 by thefenders David66 and BiggTim 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alaninaustria Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Somebody has his tinfoil hat on again!! dmthamade and D Bellis 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radub Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Somebody has his tinfoil hat on again!! I hope you are not referring to me. I have a clear idea of what I am talking about. Radu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petrov27 Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I have it on good authority that the 1/32 Dragon P-51D's surface details on the wings and fuselage is all 100% accurate - toss those Tamiya's in the garbage folks (or send to me and I will properly deal with them....) dmthamade, BiggTim and David66 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I have to agree with Peter. Jennings' drawing is an essential start for a modeller, but the reality of your subject might vary from that a bit. I have hundreds of photos of RCAF Mustangs from the late 1940s and 1950s and Polish Mustangs from the Second Global Unpleasantness. Generally I would say the rivets were mostly invisible ( and as Radu says, in scale model terms pretty much non-existent ) and some of those panel lines that were grey on Jennings drawing did show up, even just as a line of dirt built up by the airflow. The wingtip breaks were certainly the most obvious, with some of the others inboard often seen as well. It comes down to that common piece of advice that if you are striving for absolute accuracy, find photos of your subject if you can. Sometimes that's easier said than done, and in many cases wartime photos were taken from angles that won't give you a clear view of the wing upper surface...they weren't taking them with 21st Century model builders in mind. Sometimes you get lucky. I just wanted to say this is a fantastic photo. Not only is it "period"....it is also quite clear and a wealth of information relevant to model surface details, weathering, finishes and the general "patina" on an operational aircraft. Thanks for posting it! David66, dmthamade, BiggTim and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernut Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) I wouldn't call this mutilated... the Tamiya P-51D in 1/32. P-51 Wings were puttied, sanded and primed to 40% chord with NO visible panel lines in that area. Aft of 40% chord, 2 coats of sandable primer (sanded in between applications) were applied to wings (top and bottom) prior to the silver lacquer being applied. That process in and of itself was not sufficient to eliminate rivet depressions or panel lines (nor was it ever intended to). When P-51's were disassembled for shipment the wing tips from the mid-aileron join outboard were removed and reinstalled in theatre. These are new aircraft. Whether that join line or not was reputtied and painted is subject to opinion and the subsequent debate. Combat use, weathering and wing flex naturally accentuated that area behind 40% chord and would reveal rivet and panel line details faster than a nice cushy career as a Sunday flier. From what I've read, the 40% chord filler/primer was maintained as best as could be under the demands of operations. In the factory photos above, you can readily see the 40% chord finish and that the application of primer has not yet been applied to the wing in its entirety. Again, this is a new aircraft. You can also see the outer wing join at about 2/3 length of the aileron. No panel line visible in this view but you can see the rivet lines. Radu, if you have not done so, log onto the P-51SIG and look at the information posted there about the wing finished process posted by, I believe, Charles Neeley (if my memory hasn't totally failed). That is where I got a lot of the above information. As a member, I agreed not to republish anything posted there without express permission so I cannot directly quote a source or use the information verbatim. Suffice to say that Charles Neeley and the good people at the P-51SIG have, I believe, one of the most extensive knowledge bases on the P-51 Mustang anywhere in the world. I also believe Jennings developed his drawings with their input. If my information is incorrect then it is by my own hand (and failing memory) and not that of any one or anything at the P-51SIG. Oh, I almost forgot... The source for the factory photos is as Mark posted below: Building the P-51 Mustang by Michael O'Leary. I don't know the pages off hand as I don't have access to the damned book, it's packed away but it'll most definitely be found in the pages Mark's listed below. Edited February 17, 2017 by Juggernut williamj, D.B. Andrus, CANicoll and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodgem37 Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 'I have it on good authority that the 1/32 Dragon P-51D's surface details on the wings and fuselage is all 100% accurate' I love that. Thanks for the laugh. Building the P-51 Mustang by Michael O'Leary has imagery pertaining to this issue. P-51B; Pgs. 53 Right, 56 Bottom, 57 Right, 58 Left Bottom, 103, 105, 123, 133 Top Left P-51D: Pgs. 145, 147, 148, 152, 154 Sincerely, Mark David66 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petrov27 Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 'I have it on good authority that the 1/32 Dragon P-51D's surface details on the wings and fuselage is all 100% accurate' I love that. Thanks for the laugh. Just tryin to lighten the atmosphere in here MikeMaben, BiggTim and David66 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peterpools Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) Part of the issue is scale; what do you actually see at 32 feet away from the Mustang? Surely you are not going to see the rivets ... some panel lines maybe and only those that are really spacious or clogged with dirt or oil. For me where using photos of details on an aircraft taken from a few feet away and applying those details to an aircraft in scale, really 32 feet away, is a miss match of what is there to what you actually see. I built Old Crow and left all the rivets and panels lines, as from my references the paint was stripped off and most likely all the filler. I've been all over restoration aircraft: flight line, airshows and at museums. Some were beautifully polished aluminum, some had the wings painted gloss light gray, some were painted aluminum, some were two seat restorations and some single seaters, replicating the famous of the brotherhood. But none were the un-restored originals. How many Old Crows and Big Beautiful Dolls are out there today? Surely a bit more then the originals. So what's the answer - there really is none. The Mustangs wings are one of those much and forever debated topics that unfortunately, we will never know the absolute answer. Just build your Mustang, your way. After all, Frank Sinatra did it his way. Peter Edited February 18, 2017 by Peterpools Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Palimaka Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 (edited) I just wanted to say this is a fantastic photo. Not only is it "period"....it is also quite clear and a wealth of information relevant to model surface details, weathering, finishes and the general "patina" on an operational aircraft. Thanks for posting it! Thank you Bryan. It's from my Dad's collection. I believe a set of several different prints was given to all those members who were with 303 Squadron when it disbanded. It is a "staged" photo, with Squadron Leader Witold Lokuciewski symbolically removing the 303 Squadron crest from one of the last of 303's Mustangs in November 1946. It's a sad image, as the aircraft reflects the lack of activity for the Squadron at the end of their existence in the UK. When the new UK government withdrew their recognition of the Polish Government in exile, it put the RAF in a delicate predicament. But the RAF did not completely abandon these men, and deflected attempts to send them back to a Communist-controlled Poland. Eventually though, pressure was applied and they had to withdraw resources and ground them, and these proud units had to be dissolved as the reality of the political situation became clear. All that to say, that these Mustangs were not in the best of shape at the end, and this photo perhaps wouldn't reflect how they looked earlier in their assignment to 303 Squadron. She is not in the cleanest of conditions...but it does show a smooth filled and painted wing with few panel lines. Richard Edited February 18, 2017 by R Palimaka D.B. Andrus, dmthamade, David66 and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMaben Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Thanks for the pic Richard. So it's not representative of an actively maintained wartime a/c. I have wondered what the putty consisted of. I doubt that putties of the day had much flexibility when cured so would have been prone to fissuring due to movements like vibration and flex or atmospherics. What was this stuff made of ? David66 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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