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Alternatives to Alclad 2 ?


san_miguel

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Guest Paul Budzik

My personal experience ...

I used a fair amount of the original Alclad and it worked great.  I tried the new stuff when I was working on the Tempest.  The first batch wouldn't even dry and when I wrote to the owner about the issue, he was in denial and defensive, treating me as if I was trying to milk him for some free paint.  I gave it another go with some different bottles, but as far as I could see, it had terrible adhesion.  Applied it over sanded out lacquer primer and the stuff virtually fell off.  Maybe he improved it, but he lost me with such poor customer service and, at the time at least, a substandard product.  The stuff is too expensive to try again ... like Charlie Brown and the football ...

 

LucyFootball.jpg

 

Paul

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I have tried 3 aluminum paint types to date - Testors Metalizers, SnJ Spray Metal (which is not made anymore), and now Alclad II. Both the Testors and the SNJ were "buffing" style metallics, and both yielded extremely nice finishes whether left matte or polished. However, clearcoating over with gloss on the polished finishes tended to mess up the shine some, which led me to use them only for matte finishes. If left unpolished, and coated with matte clear, they both looked awesome. And yes, clearcoating over them is critical before you mask, as tape and will completely mess it up. Once you've done that, they perform very well.

 

I recently used alclad II for the first time, and am impressed so far. I used the duraluminum color over Tamiya Fine Gray primer for the areas of my Hellcat I would be chipping, covered directly (no clearcoat between) with Testors MM non-spec sea blue. I was able to chip the blue enamel paint off the alclad by scrubbing it with a toothbrush and window cleaner without harming the alclad in any way. I also experimented with using tape to pull off some of the blue, which also worked without harming the alclad. So, in a nutshell, I have had no adhesion problems at all so far, though I will grant that my experience is very limited.

 

I would very much like to try the Gunze or AK paints.

 

So, if you can't get Alclad up there, I'd take a crack at Gunze or AK if you can find them, which is unlikely in the retail setting. If the Testors Metalizers are the only thing available, give them a shot, especially if you are doing a matte finish or using them as base to chip over, but make sure to clearcoat over them before doing anything else. Good luck!!

 

Tim

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I just got done using some of the "Duraluminum" from the AK X-treme Metal line. The adhesion is GREAT IMHO, and there is one major difference from the AK X-treme Metal line VS Alclad II:

 

Alclad II =                lacquer

AK X-treme metal =  enamel

 

 

For me, the AK stuff worked a treat, and you indeed can mask over it with no issues what so ever. I did not even de-tack the Tamiya tape I used.   Now, so far I have only used the Duraluminum, and have not used the polished, chrome, or any of the other colors I purchased.

 

You can purchase most all of the X-treme Metal line from SB.com as well.   I will definitely be giving the other colors a try when I have a chance. I cleared over the Duraluminum with gloss for a wash, and didnt notice a big difference in sheen like I did with Alclad II>

 

Hard to tell in these pics, but even the Duraluminum was quite nice and realistic looking to my eye, with the more typical coppery/tanish hue through the aluminum color. I used only Mr Surfacer 1500 black as a base for the Duraluminum. These two shots are of the Duraluminum prior to any gloss coat:

 

DSC04692.jpg

 

DSC04693.jpg

 

 

HIGHLY recommended stuff for anyone having some of the typical issues with Alclad II. Although I havent had the outright lack of adhesion some have seen, I have not had NEARLY the stellar luck with Alclad as the likes of Peter and Mal. Im not sure if its enamel make up is what makes it stronger than Alclad II, but it INDEED does seem to be much stronger and much more resilient, and resistant to pulling off.

Edited by Out2gtcha
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I did a fairly extensive review of the new Xtreme Metal from AK Interactive a little while back:

 

http://www.largescaleplanes.com/reviews/review.php?rid=1510

 

To summarise my experiences, it's a great product, and if you leave it to dry/cure for 24 hours, will take masking without a problem. You must use it over a primer though, if you intend to mask it. Underlying colours have no effect on the resultant hue.

 

Having said all that, my favourite metallic paints for robustness and utility are still Tamiya's AS and TS ranges of rattle can silvers.

 

Kev

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Guest Peterpools

Brian

Looks great and will be testing them out. Time to re-read Kev's review and then buy a few bottles and see how I like them

Peter

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Guest Paul Budzik

Brian ...

 

Unfortunately, the miracle of close up photography, in your last image, you can plainly see the grain from your underlying paint or primer.  For me, that is unacceptable.  While the texture may aid in adhesion, the result is rough and destroys a real metal look.  Spraying these finishes over gloss is no better.  For the best surface finish, these metallics need to go over a very smooth, finished down, surface, and when applied that way, most of them have lousy adhesion.

 

Since the original Alclad, Floquil, etc have gone away, I've had to adopt a different approach ... but that is for a later date ... and so far, I can't even seem to sell enough people on the idea of a smooth surface.

 

Paul

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Well, I guess my work is unacceptable then......

However...........you SHOULD be aware I basically used 0 prep of the primer under the paint since none of that area was going to be hardly visible at all.

I'd say that area is pretty damn "acceptable" in every way IMHO have had literally no prep or sanding of the primer.
I'll try to live up to expectations next time.

Also, if Indeed you are trying to "sell" folks on a smooth surface even when they don't need or care about one, starting off the conversation by calling someone's work unacceptable is the wrong way to do it. Especially when "unacceptable" is an opinion of yours only. In this case with the extreme difficulty anyone would have seeing in there, to my this is VERY acceptable.

Edited by Out2gtcha
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NMF is the same for ANY medium including the most realistic looking one IMHO foil. It's generally a pretty widely known fact that if you don't prep the sureface under ANY NMF surface you can expect to have less than perfect texture. For me, spending the hrs of prep and sanding to get that rear area smooth, or foil it way out weighed just getting some color on an area that no one will ever be able to see in detail.

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Brian.  I think you might be at crossed purposes with Paul.

 

I strongly suspect Pauls not in any way being critical. 

 

I'd suggest he's simply being analytical and describing how the micromechanical retention that the Mr Surfacer 1500 Black primer provides inevitably creates an rougher topcoat surface texture. You'll get better paint adhesion but obviously not a surface finish like it was a metal panel.

 

I agree...in an area that you don't see it's probably of no consequence but on part that's endeavouring to simulate metal, additional prep of the substrate might yield an optimised result...assuming it matters and one can be fussed.

 

If it's of any help Lucky Model stocks Alclad 2 and more.  When they've had their $2 flat rate for shipping its possible to order paints and have them shipped to your door.

 

Cheers Matty

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I understand where you are coming from Matt. It just came off the wrong way for sure. To me at least, especially when the circumstances, and what I was trying (or NOT trying) to accomplish was not known at the time.

 

 

You can see here how much is actually visible and why I put 0 work into prepping the under layer:

 

DSC04756.jpg

Edited by Out2gtcha
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My personal experience ...

I used a fair amount of the original Alclad and it worked great.  I tried the new stuff when I was working on the Tempest.  The first batch wouldn't even dry and when I wrote to the owner about the issue, he was in denial and defensive, treating me as if I was trying to milk him for some free paint.  I gave it another go with some different bottles, but as far as I could see, it had terrible adhesion.  Applied it over sanded out lacquer primer and the stuff virtually fell off.  Maybe he improved it, but he lost me with such poor customer service and, at the time at least, a substandard product.  The stuff is too expensive to try again ... like Charlie Brown and the football ...

 

LucyFootball.jpg

 

Paul

 

 

I never had any issue of this kind with alclad paints, but i did with their airbrush ready varnishes. The waterbase clear dries nicely and is a very good alternative to Future, but the lacquer clear coats always remain sticky, even after days and days. I never tried to bought some again either, but that's a shame because the products look very nice and are easy to use (a lot of flatness variations from dead flat to glossy).

There must be an issue in their mixes.

 

Another problem i had with a recent order is bottle of "jet exhaust" that is so dark that is looks like some gunmetal. Totally useless if used directly out of the bottle, i have to mix it with some aluminium or any other lighter shades to get it more steel-like.

 

 

Except that, i like this paint and their large range of metallic colors. They really stink, though.

Edited by Zero77
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I just got done using some of the "Duraluminum" from the AK X-treme Metal line. The adhesion is GREAT IMHO, and there is one major difference from the AK X-treme Metal line VS Alclad II:

 

Alclad II =                lacquer

AK X-treme metal =  enamel

 

 

For me, the AK stuff worked a treat, and you indeed can mask over it with no issues what so ever. I did not even de-tack the Tamiya tape I used.   Now, so far I have only used the Duraluminum, and have not used the polished, chrome, or any of the other colors I purchased.

 

You can purchase most all of the X-treme Metal line from SB.com as well.   I will definitely be giving the other colors a try when I have a chance. I cleared over the Duraluminum with gloss for a wash, and didnt notice a big difference in sheen like I did with Alclad II>

 

Hard to tell in these pics, but even the Duraluminum was quite nice and realistic looking to my eye, with the more typical coppery/tanish hue through the aluminum color. I used only Mr Surfacer 1500 black as a base for the Duraluminum. These two shots are of the Duraluminum prior to any gloss coat:

 

DSC04692.jpg

 

DSC04693.jpg

 

 

HIGHLY recommended stuff for anyone having some of the typical issues with Alclad II. Although I havent had the outright lack of adhesion some have seen, I have not had NEARLY the stellar luck with Alclad as the likes of Peter and Mal. Im not sure if its enamel make up is what makes it stronger than Alclad II, but it INDEED does seem to be much stronger and much more resilient, and resistant to pulling off.

 

 

As far as i've tried the AK paints, they are all as nice as the dural, but the 2 high shine finishes (polished aluminium and chrome) really need a special care, like any other high shine metallic finish. However, they are tougher than Alclad high shine.

I tried to get the really mirror like finish with some chrome. But it really need a perfectly gloss, smooth as glass, surface. If not, it will never work. I had to make several test before getting what i want. The best way was to apply some wet coats of tamiya gloss black spray can, letting it self level, and then you have a very good mirror effect. I've tried with the AK gloss black primer, but it did not work. I think the surface was not enough glossy and smooth, even if to the eyeball it looked ok. I still have to make a new try with this AK black primer, but next time i'll polish and buff it as much as i can.

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Guest Paul Budzik

Brian,

 

It wasn't meant as an insult.  Simply put, texture under any metal finish is something that I work at to prevent.  What I see looks like silver paint applied over overspray (underlying paint or primer going on too dry)... maybe I'm wrong, but the buildup in the rib areas looks consistent with that sort of thing.  So, for me only, it is not a good result.

 

The second part of this speaks to the ongoing difference in adhesion results related by different modelers.  If you spray any paint on sandpaper, it will stick.  So having a less than smooth finish makes it easier for paint to stick, which isn't much of a problem it you are using a solid flat color.  However, if you want the most realistic metal finish, you have to eighty-six the grain.  How many metal surfaces do you see that have a pebble finish?  So if you shrink them down to 1/32, any grain at all blows the whole effect.  It's the bane of NM finishes and why some turn to foil.  These are some of the nebulous issues that don't interest some modelers while others (unfortunately I have to include myself), have focused a fair amount of attention on.  And I devoted this video to that very idea ...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVIH5DcQ9I8&list=PLRK4diRzRX1ehOr70tV7DuvntjvL42HXA&index=1

 

BB%20Video%20Image%20017.jpg

 

 

 

I'm sorry if you took personal offense, It wasn't meant as such and I certainly did not say that your modeling was unacceptable.  That is a subjective view that I would never take ... one of my big issue with IPMS's and why you don't see me there anymore.  I think it is a limitation of word and writing on bulletin board ... had we been face to face in an informal setting, there would be a lot less chance for misinterpretation.

 

Paul

Edited by Paul Budzik
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More to my point was just the fact that the work (not my personal work but the situation in which the AK Extreme metal was applied) should not be judged as unacceptable because it was not an expose area, and therefore was not prepped or applied in a manor in which the results you described would have been achieved.

 

I foil for 75% of my NMF surfaces, and prep is 200% involved in getting any kind of realistic finish.

 

I guess what I'm getting at, is if you sand and polish your under layer and prep it like you need to for most any NMF surface foil of paint, (so far at least) the AK Extreme metal products have excellent adhesion, much better than Alclad II IMHO. I have not however tired their high shine products chrome and polished aluminium.

Edited by Out2gtcha
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  • 5 months later...

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