HK B-17...C 5/4 sweating the metal

[brahman104]

Regarding the nose windows, HK made an error with these, in particular the starboard side.

 

The size of the windows seems ok on the left side, and the rear window on the right appears ok, but the forward most window was too large - HK moulded it the same size as the furthest aft window.

 

Careful studying of the B-17 nose window arrangement shows that the forward right window was in fact smaller, so you could use the HK piece as a guide for the rear two windows, but the forward one definitely needs to be reduced in comparison, but I think yours is just a little too small currently.

 

What are your plans for the nose transparancy? Moulding your own?

 

Tom

 

Awesome, thanks for that info! You know in all honesty I actually hadn't even considered using the HK windows as a guide, I was using some really old warpaint drawings that Tim very kindly sent to me. But not a bad idea as you said for the back ones. I'll definitely revisit the size of each, they're only really there in spirit at the moment, just to get a feel for what they'll look like. And certainly now that you mention it, the front does look a little small... cheers!

 

Yeah, nose transparency..... I just started looking at that last night. I was actually wondering whether I could cast a solid copy of the G (inside dimensions) in resin to give me a good starting point, then reshape a new master based on that with which I could vac form a new one in acrylic in much the same way as Paul Budzik did his spectacular F conversion in 1/48. 

 

Obviously the profile is a fair bit different, but offering the kit piece up to my printed nose last night the outline is quite similar, which would give me something to start from.

 

As always, that's the rough plan, any thoughts or suggestions are always appreciated! Thanks so much for your continued interest in the project.

 

Craig 

Edited September 12, 2015 by brahman104

[TKB]

Everyone,

 

I am up in years and no longer actively modeling. but I still "tinker". Sights like this allow me to continue the experience vicariously through all your works. I thank you all for that. Some advice from an old man ---- enjoy the hobby before your fingers and eyes stop co-operating with you!

 

I found this project especially interesting. The title "refining the face" is really appropriate as the cabin/nose area is the peesonality of the B-17. Outside of the 1/48 Mono/Revell F and G, every other kit manufacturer's rendition of the B-17 has botched up different asspects, but the cabin/nose area seems continually elude them all.

 

I compliment you on your undertaking and you are slowly but surely getting the windscreen/upper nose problem sorted out.

 

My main reason for this response are the nose windows. If it is any help, the actual nose window dimensions are:

 

Seven (7) larger rearmost, left, right and upper: 15.5" X 12"

Three (3) smaller frontmost, left, right and upper: 14.25 X 10.25"

 

These dimensions are off an actual Boeing drawing I came across on anther sight.These nose window sizes did not change, at least on the B-17B through G, outside of when the enlarged gun enplacements took the place of a original windows.

 

Cowlings are going to be another problem area, but I'll save that for another post.

 

I am not claiming to be a B-17 "expert", but over the past half century, I have accumulated alot of useful and useless information on the B-17.

 

Thanks again everyone.

[brahman104]

Everyone,

 

I am up in years and no longer actively modeling. but I still "tinker". Sights like this allow me to continue the experience vicariously through all your works. I thank you all for that. Some advice from an old man ---- enjoy the hobby before your fingers and eyes stop co-operating with you!

 

I found this project especially interesting. The title "refining the face" is really appropriate as the cabin/nose area is the peesonality of the B-17. Outside of the 1/48 Mono/Revell F and G, every other kit manufacturer's rendition of the B-17 has botched up different asspects, but the cabin/nose area seems continually elude them all.

 

I compliment you on your undertaking and you are slowly but surely getting the windscreen/upper nose problem sorted out.

 

My main reason for this response are the nose windows. If it is any help, the actual nose window dimensions are:

 

Seven (7) larger rearmost, left, right and upper: 15.5" X 12"

Three (3) smaller frontmost, left, right and upper: 14.25 X 10.25"

 

These dimensions are off an actual Boeing drawing I came across on anther sight.These nose window sizes did not change, at least on the B-17B through G, outside of when the enlarged gun enplacements took the place of a original windows.

 

Cowlings are going to be another problem area, but I'll save that for another post.

 

I am not claiming to be a B-17 "expert", but over the past half century, I have accumulated alot of useful and useless information on the B-17.

 

Thanks again everyone.

 

Hi TKB,

 

This being by the looks of it your first post on here, let me say that I'm honoured that you chose to comment on my build! Welcome indeed, there are many really talented guys doing some amazing stuff on this site so I think you'll find plenty to look at

 

I'm 33 now so I hope that I still have the use of my fingers and eyes by the time I finish this build! 

 

I totally agree with your comment about the "face" being what gives the B-17 her character, I'm slowly chipping away at it and I hope I can do it justice... sometimes I think I've nailed it, then I go back about half and hour later and see a whole heap of mistakes... still that's what this is all about for me, learning as I go.

 

Thank you very much for your timely info on the window sizes, I really appreciate you sharing that with me. I hope you continue to follow the build and if you have any more info you'd like to share, particularly on the early models, please feel free to put it up and hopefully others can benefit from it too.

 

Cheers mate,

 

Craig

[TKB]

Yeah, that was my first post. As they say I have been "lurking" on the sidelines for awhile and finally felt I had something to contribute with the window dimensions.

 

It's a shame you have to put so much effort into to windshield area, but it has to be done --- and you are getting there. Without correction, from some angles it looks acceptable, but from other angles it looks like a caricature! There has been so much moaning and groaning and debate about this kit, that it got tiring. I will agree that it is indeed an impressive kit  --- but it could have been so much more! The bottom line is it is what it is and that's that! Nice to have some modelers, like yourself, that rather then just "complain about the weather" take the plunge and do something to correct the problem

 

Like I mention, I'm pushing 65 and can remember when if you wanted a Spitfire, the 1/4" Aurora kit was the ONLY kit you had. Then Lindberg came out with one and it seemed like such a leap in accuracy. Then Monogram set a new standard. Now, some 50+ years later, how many Spitfire kits are on the market and not one of them is perfect --- and there never will be!

In the early 60's, I obtained modeling plans for a 1/40 B-17F directly from Boeing. I figure how can I go wrong --- Boeing! They were pretty good general plans, but over the years I have found numerous discrepancies --- from Boeing!

My point is nothing is 100% correct but an original. Even a real B-17 that has been restored cannot claim to be fully accurate. Yes they are beatifully restored, but the only  B-17s that are totally 100% accurate are squished under 250' of ice. Hopefully someone will bring them up someday (that's another subject).

 

Getting back to modeling, all B-17 types have always been my interest, but the B-17E is #1 followed by the C/D, then F and finally the G (with an early G over a later)..

 

When you get to working on the interior of the nose compartment, keep in mind :

1) The front end of the bombarrdier's floor should be even with the bottom of the first nose   

    station. This would be true for the B-17B through B-17E.

2) The floor was changed on the B-17F, angled to an elevated level at the first nose station. It is

    speculation only, but I believe this was done in order to mount the bombsight further forward.

3) The cowlings on the B,C,D were different from the E and the E was different from the F/G. Not

    simply the cowl flaps.

 

I can get into the cowlings in another post, as it will be long winded, as this one is getting.

 

Keep up the good work and don't get frustrated!

 

[brahman104]

Couldn't agree more TKB!

 

To me modelling is relative and personal, if you as the modeller are happy with what you've built, then that's really all there is to it! I've been making plenty of guesses with this build so far, seeing as it really is a conversion, so there is always going to be some form of compromise anyway.

 

I hope that one day HK bring out the F model, as I would love to do an E and an F too. I've never had a great deal of interest in the G.... it just seems so "mainstream" Having said that, if someone offered me a ride in one, I wouldn't hesitate that's for sure.

 

Thank you for those additional points. I've been looking at those differences in the cowlings between the models but that point is still a fair way off yet. I think I understand what you mean about the floor in the nose.. I'll check my references again and hopefully come up with a plan.

 

At the moment I'm still working around the cockpit and the interior of that point. Very "chicken and the egg" stuff. You can't really do one without the other first being addressed which has made things a little tricky, but I think I'm making some progress. I've started to detail the interior with some structure there as soon I'll have to permanently insert the cockpit so I can then fit out the nose and the bomb bay aft of that.

 

Getting exactly the right pictures of what you are trying to make is always a challenge, but hopefully I've got something that represents the area (for what you're going to be able to see through the forward door anyway!)

 

Cheers again and enjoy the journey

 

Craig

[TKB]

Craig (and everyone)

 

Thanks! For years I have been trying to put a label on how I felt about the B-17G and you came up with it!

"Too mainstream" descibes it exactly!

 

Yes, modeling is personal. Yet to different degrees we are all "purists", wanting to "get it right". I admire someone that can model to the extreme on accuracy, but have no use for someone that ridcules the work of someone that is not that into absolute, total accuracy. I have been around this type (we all have) at modeling shows, nit-picking to death everything down the line. I usually will ask them which model on the tables is thier's and inevitably the answer is "none". I consider myself an "accuracy nut" but not a "rivet-counter". Yeah, the issue with the B-17 cabin/nose does bother me; do I care if the number of toggle switches on a P-40  instrument panel is correct --- NO!

It's all in hindsight, but I wish HK would have had a Monogram B-17 sitting in front of them (probably did) from the start and took the stance that thier 1/32 rendition had to be at least that good.

 

I think HK will eventually release the B-17E/F. My opinion is the same problems will be there, but you never know. They may see it being to thier benefit to correct some of the more glaring issues, as Trumpeter did after the intial release of thier 1/32 Wildcat. They were applauded for that, as they should have, but I don't believe thay have done that again when issues of accuracy have come up on other kit releases. Guess the "bean counters" have the last say! Then again, if HK were to fix the various problems on the E/F, then I'm sure the G aficionados will feel slighted. No pleasing everyone!

 

I must say HK is consumer conscience. When the first rumblings about a 1/32 B-17 came out, I contacted them and suggested they consider doing a truel modular kit, with the kit parts broken down somewhat to that of the real B-17. Kinda like the wings, bombbay and radio compartment as your basic kit and the separate kits with the components needed to build a B/C/D, another kit for the E/F and one for the G/H. Sure, it wouldn't be a "shake and bake" kit, but think of the number of variations that could be built. Well, surprisingly they did get back to me and thanked me for my input and rough drawings --- even said that I was "obviously a B-17 expert". Expert --- no, but I do know a bit more then average. Anyway, they thought the idea was interesting, but didn't feel there would be a market for that type of kit form. Still,  I thought that was decent of them to take the time to send me a lengthy reply.

 

I know what you mean about the "chicken and the egg" That's what got me going on this whole "cowling issue" of mine. Again, I am not calling mysef an "expert", but I am getting more and more "knowledgable" on B-17 cowlings! I have yet to see a B-17 kit with cowlings that look right. As much as I consider Monogram's B-17 to be a benchmark, it has it's flaws and the cowlings are one of them. Something wasn't right. it looked more like the cowl for the E. I have no proof (yet!) but it seems the cowling itself (no cowl flaps) is .159 cm too long for the G. That ain.t much but it made a difference. Something was still wrong and it turned out the engine was set too far back in the cowl, which in turn made me see that Monogram's redition of the engine crankcase dome was too long. They set the engine further back to compensate for the longer dome in order to put the prop in the right place. Once you shorten the crankcase dome and move the engine forwrd (not as easy as it all sounds) it matches the photos of the real thing, with the cylinders almost right up on the cowling lip. However, I'm still fumbling with the shape of the cowl. I believe the F/G had a slight taper towards the front edge, compared to the B/C/D and E cowl. I keep looking for info and hopefully will find  the info I need someday.

 

ANYBODY OUT THERE KNOW THE LENGTH OF THE F/G COWLING FROM THE FRONT LIP TO THE REAR EDGE OF THE COWL FLAP? I know the D/E was 27.75" long.

 

Research, research, research! I hate it and love it at the same time!

 

You've probably notice I keep disclaiming to be an expert. I just don't want come off as a "know-it-all" to anyone. Just like to share what I do know. If someday I have every Boeing B-17 blueprint on total recall in my brain, then maybe I'll be an expert!

 

Well, I'm going on and on again, keeping you from working on your Fort.

Let me know if you need any help, researchwise. I've come across alot of "odd stuff" from "off the path" places.

 

Please keep us all posted on your progress, no matter if it's a lot or small.

I think I speak for everyone on that!

 

 

Terry

[brahman104]

Thanks again Terry. All really good information you've put up there and good to keep in the back of the mind for later

 

And so another weekend goes by....

 

After a lot of mucking around with the outside shape around the cockpit, it was about time I started with the inside. I added some angled walls to the structure I had made already and then the sidewalls which sat on top of them. This then gave the control cables something to be attached to and meant I could start placing things into position in the cockpit.

 

It has also made it more of a "module" which is much more convenient when popping it in and out to check the progress and look.

 

 

You'll notice from the back that there's a step in from the angles part to the side walls..... my bad, this isn't actually on the real thing, but it shouldn't be that noticeable when it's all put together and hidden behind a few seats and other paraphernalia.

 

 

I also decided to start the centre pedestal. Due to having a new floor, I had to build up a new support structure. I'm really not sure if those big trim wheels are on both sides or just the left; every photo of a B-17 cockpit seems different, so I must be right....... 

 

 

I also got really excited and used some AK worn effects for some light chipping on the seats. These came out really well I thought, then I remembered there's some lovely big yellow seat cushions that go over the top. Idiot!

 

Played a bit with the rudder pedals too, but didn't get too carried away since you'll be doing well to see them once it's all together.

 

 

Seeing as I was turfing the HK sidewalls, I figured I'd go down the easier path and take some of the sidewall details from them. These parts are actually a very close representation of the equipment installation on the real ones from what I can see. Nice work HK!

 

 

 

So after that I did a little painting to bring all the bits and pieces together. Next up will be the seat installation. I'm still trying to figure out if the D's had the seat back armour, it kind of looks like they didn't so that's probably how I'm going to go. Plus, it will make the rest of the cockpit more visible. I also realised I need to cast a few copies of the seats seeing are there are two more in that space, but that's for another time.

 

Like usual, not much of an update, but it all takes time and every little bit contributes to the end result

 

Cheers,

 

Craig

[richdlc]

excellent work..

[brahman104]

The fun continues

 

I more or less managed to make a successful enough cast of the seats so as to make two more for the four that are supposed to be on the flight deck. Given it's only a seat, it was surprisingly difficult to make a mould, but I got there in the end, even if the end products required a little reconstructive surgery. Once they were cleaned up, I added the frames.

 

I couldn't find any photos showing what the rear two seat supports looks like so I just copied the front two. You'll not the armour plate has been removed which was heaps of fun....

 

 

 

 

And to hide most of my dodgy casting work I made seat cushions out of magic sculpt.....

 

Here's a rough idea of what they'll look like once installed. Now I know the right rear seat has a table in front of it, but I have no idea about the left, so I probably just do one on that side only. In any case the cockpit should look suitably busy from the outside.

 

 

 

I tried painting the lettering on the seats, got as far as the US AIR CORPS bit and went "who am I kidding?" Promptly got out the computer and made some decals which cam out pretty good I reckon

 

 

I also realised I had forgotten to add the "soundproofing" material to the cockpit sides. Hmmm, that's going to be fun to paint.....

 

 

And lastly a motivational shot for myself to remind me that this is actually progressing!

 

 

Better remember to add the seatbelts before I get too carried away.

 

Getting there slowly! 

 

Craig

 

[LSP_Kevin]

Excellent work, Craig! Truly inspirational stuff.

 

Kev

[ClumsyDude]

Looking great Craig. Like Kev says, inspirational stuff!

 

Jim

[airscale]

love the way the cockpit is coming together Craig - my favourite part the scratchbuilt seats look superb..

 

very nice job indeed

 

Peter

[zak]

This is such a cool project, cockpit is looking great

[brahman104]

Thanks very much Kev, Jim, Peter and Zak. I'm humbled you guys have taken the time to follow along on the build!

 

This afternoon I got the seats in and had a crack at the control wheels, which, naturally aren't anything like the ones in the kit. (maybe next project should be OOB!)

 

I'm not entirely sure I've gone the right approach for these yet, but I'll post progress again soon, regardless of triumph or failure as this is a build log

 

Thinking ahead, I really want to get into the bomb bay. Kind of like the cockpit, I think I'm going to try and make it as a stand alone module that I can place in and out until I'm happy with it. I also want to go a little crazy and try to make the main parts out of brass, mainly because it looks cool. I'm going to have to go back and have another read of the way Peter made his outstanding cockpit parts using photo etch as that's the only way I can see of getting a lot of the fine work done.....

 

Thanks again

 

Craig

[TKB]

Craig

 

Really nice job bringing the entire flight deck compartment to life, especially the lower section. Always like "models within models."

Your "guesstimate"of the rear seats is a combination of good logic and fantastic modeling on your part.

 

I've always wondered about the roof observation dome.

When it was off centered to the right on the B, I could see maybe the right seat cranking up into it, but what  about when it was moved centerline on the C/D? Step between the rear seats maybe? Any idea?

 

TKB