HK B-17...C 5/4 sweating the metal

[Anthony in NZ]

Loving this build as usual Craig....glad you are acclimatizing ole chap!  Love your new ride by the wat, those NH-90's are cool!  Still miss the ole Huey though...

 

Nacelles are coming along great, keep up the great work! 

[JayW]

18 hours ago, brahman104 said:

I've always said though, Americans really know how to make good (both engineered and looking) aircraft.

 

I am not sure I have ever heard anyone suggest that the CH-47 Chinook is a "good looking" aircraft.  Unless I extended your observation too far!  Now the B-17, there is a good looking aircraft in an ancient sort of way.  The D-model Mustang?  Perhaps the best looking aircraft of all time - I am one of many who think that.    

[TKB]

Craig,

 

You outboard nacelles are looking great. A lot of work, but in the end will be worth it. The actual HK parts used for your "C" continues to dwindle don't they?

 

How's it feel to be flying under the "Kiwi" roundel rather then the "Roo" roundel? Talk about a résumé!

 

I have to agree, the P-51D was a good looking aircraft, but my vote for the most aesthetically appealing fighter goes to the CA-27 Avon Sabre ... and I'm not just catering to your Australian roots. The changes that distinguish it from F-86F were just enough to put it in the #1 slot in the Sabre family. Bombers ... well,  it'll always be the Fort!

 

Terry

 

 

[Robthepom]

great weathering and building

 

question...what brand of silicon did you use? will you create resin parts?

 

very interesting

[JayW]

11 hours ago, TKB said:

I have to agree, the P-51D was a good looking aircraft, but my vote for the most aesthetically appealing fighter goes to the CA-27 Avon Sabre ... and I'm not just catering to your Australian roots. The changes that distinguish it from F-86F were just enough to put it in the #1 slot in the Sabre family. Bombers ... well,  it'll always be the Fort!

 

Well let me modify my statement about the Mustang by limiting it to the category of prop-driven aircraft.  When it comes to jets, well Katie bar the door!  Some of the relatively recent Soviet jets are high on my list of sex appeal.  The Sabre - an interesting pick but a good one.  It's beautiful.  And, coincidentally or not, it was created by North American the same producer of the Mustang.  And one can see the family resemblances.  Looks to me like a combination of a P-51 and a ME-262 and historically that is not far from the truth.

 

Bombers - Maybe the North American Aviation designs just strike me right, but the B-25 is also very appealing to me.   It ought to be the B-26, but there is something about it that isn't quite as appealing.  It looks too much like a Betty which also doesn't appeal that much to me.  Like a flying cucumber.  Just me though....  The B-17G - bristling with 50's, now that is one sexy ride there.

[brahman104]

I don't know about you guys, but my interests do change with time. Funny, I never really liked the early B-17s until one day I did!

 

So here's the results from the first pour. The 3D printed insert worked really well to reduce the amount of weight and resin that went into the cast.

 

 

Unfortunately you can see I still ended up with a large air pocket. This is going to be problematic to get rid of, but not impossible. All in all with what I was attempting to do, actually pretty pleased!

 

 

 

Here's the setup with the 3D printed insert going in:

 

 

 

I coated the brass pin in vaseline which allowed it to be removed once the resin had cured. Definitely the most challenging cast I've ever done, but it (mostly) worked!

 

At least I have proved the mould works and can now use the originals to build the wing finally!!!!!

 

Cheers,

 

Craig

[TKB]

Craig,

Now that's pretty impressive for you "first off!" Between all your "Craig" fabricated parts, the "aftermarket" manufacturers are going to be knocking at your door!

 

Probably old news to most. The air bubbles ... a DIY vacuum chamber.  There's plenty on U-tube. Something like a large cooler and a cheap air compressor inside. Form a silicone gasket on the lid lip for an air tight seal, a hole in the side for the air hose (sealed) to discharge outside the cooler and one for the electric cord (sealed) and some duct tape. Put the resin filled mold box in the cooler, close the lid, seal with duct tape and turn on the comprssor for awhile. A "poor man's" vacuum chamber --- sounds too simply to work, but in the videos, it sure looks like it does! Guess the whole secret to it is getting a really good seal on the cooler, as you're not talking about alot of interior space to pull a vacuum and bring those bubbles out of the resin.

 

Terry

[brahman104]

Thanks Terry!

 

Hahaha yeah, the number of "aftermarket" parts grows by the day!  I know what you mean with the air bubbles, I absolutely agree with you. Unfortunately I'm using a very low pot life resin, so I'm literally working to just get enough resin into the mould before it goes off! I'd like to get some that takes a few hours to go off, but all I can get (without spending a fortune) is the 2 minute pot life stuff. Oh and I probably induced a few too many when I mixed it with a little too much enthusiasm......

 

Still works though!

 

We'll see with the next pour if my modification has any effect....... Exciting times!

 

Craig

[TKB]

Craig,

 

Wow ... two minutes pot life! I didn't realize you were working that much "under the gun!" Plus ... it's not like you're casting a small part, is it!

 

I know I wasn't telling you anything new about a vacuum  chamber, I was just amazed at how well the simple DIY ones seem to work.

 

Being you're going to "skin" her, dealing with the air bubbles shouldn't be too much work. Still a beautiful casting!

 

Again, really nice work you continually pull off!

[brahman104]

So I finally reached a significant milestone....... 6 years into the build and I have glued one wing together!!!!!!

 

But of course it wasn't straight forward.

 

There was still lumps and bumps that were not present on the early wings that had to be removed and filled, then there was still a significant amount of dry fitting to make sure my redone outer nacelles would fit without causing the rest of the wing to deform etc.

 

 

I also had one of those modelling moments where something seems so easy to do, but yet you struggle to the point of questioning your ability as a modeller!!

 

 

Those pesky intakes on on the leading edge. I wanted to blank them off so they looked like they were going somewhere, but do you think I could get it right without gaps or alignment issues? It seriously took me 3 attempts to do this...... what is wrong with me? 

 

Anyway, got there in the end and finally got this!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Yay!! a whole wing in all its glory! So I'm ready to start skinning right? Wrong...... I still have a huge amount of sanding and filing to remove all the raised details. These will then be added back over the top of the main skins later on. Just when you thought you were out of the woods hey?

I also figured the old Tokyo tank vent would look a little out of place on a C model, so that got filled too  

 

 

Lots more sanding to do. Hopefully with NZ going back into lockdown I can get some contact adhesive before the shops close.......

 

Cheers,

 

Craig

 

 

[MikeMaben]

5 hours ago, brahman104 said:

                 you struggle to the point of questioning your ability as a modeller!!

 

                   WHAT ???

 

        Egads man ...  NEVER !!!

 

[TKB]

Craig,

 

Everything you've surmounted  over six years and you "question you ability as a modeler" over those lousy inlets! I think that's being a bit hard on yourself!

 

Besides something that like those inlets are bound to have "Murphy Law" written all over them!

 

In 1-32, surprised HK didn't provide inlet inserts.

 

Terry

[tomprobert]

Congratulations on reaching this milestone, Craig! Psychologically, these moments make a huge difference and if my experience is anything to go by, you’ll get the other wing done in no time at all 

 

It’s still an absolute pleasure to follow your progress - keep at it!

 

All the best,

Tom

[brahman104]

On 8/13/2020 at 5:11 PM, TKB said:

Craig,

 

Everything you've surmounted  over six years and you "question you ability as a modeler" over those lousy inlets! I think that's being a bit hard on yourself!

 

Besides something that like those inlets are bound to have "Murphy Law" written all over them!

 

In 1-32, surprised HK didn't provide inlet inserts.

 

Terry

 

Hahaha! Thanks for the reality check as always Terry  And yes, it did seem like a bit of an oversight on HK's behalf not to include them. Perhaps they'll fix that when they bring out their C model.......... 

 

On 8/13/2020 at 9:37 PM, tomprobert said:

Congratulations on reaching this milestone, Craig! Psychologically, these moments make a huge difference and if my experience is anything to go by, you’ll get the other wing done in no time at all 

 

It’s still an absolute pleasure to follow your progress - keep at it!

 

All the best,

Tom

 

Thanks Tom, at least you have the benefit of experience the second time around right!

 

So another 6 weeks has flown past, what have I been up to? Lots of R&D, not so much progress towards completion though...

 

Armed with Peter's (Airscale's) Patreon videos about skinning with litho, it was definitely high time to try my own. From my early experiments with embossing divots into metal using a PE guide in 1/32 scale I knew that the probability of the template moving, even when taped, would induce too many errors on my part, so I wanted to go down a more predictable path.

 

Also, as my rivets would be applied in the reverse to Peter's (as in not countersunk like most fighters), I had to find a way to preserve the protrusions once I'd added them. During my trip to Canada a few years ago, I was fortunate to meet a Gentleman who produces some of the most exquisite models I have ever seen from scratch. If you have a few minutes, treat yourself, you won't be disappointed....

 

https://www.precisemodeling.com/

 

Anyway, he very graciously shared with me how he uses a microscope and a very small diameter tube to push down the deformation around each rivet from the top side once it has been applied from the bottom. Definitely not a quick process but once you get the hang of it, it works pretty well!

 

 

In the above photo you can see the top three rows of rivets. This is what they look like when embossed from the back.

 

 

This is the "tool" I've made. It's really just a piece of 0.018" dia stainless tube in a pin vice, and is just the right size to push back down the surrounding metal.

 

 

Here's my microscope, just a cheapie from ebay, but it's got a nice LED ring light over the end so seeing what you're doing is pretty easy.

 

 

Not the best photo, but on the right is before the area has been pushed back down, on the left has been done. They look a lot sharper!

 

 

My "working" view through the microscope...... this was super hard to photograph by the way!

 

 

This one was a comparison of various "rosie the riveter" wheels and my use of template guides...... you can see why I wanted something more precise! 

 

A few years ago I purchased a Curio craft machine from Silhouette. This is the same company that makes the mask cutters so many of us use. It's primarily designed to be used for cutting shapes out of card, but can be used to emboss designs onto light metal surfaces. However, because it is a craft tool primarily made for bored housewives to do scrapbooking (no offence intended to anyone!) it needed some tweaking to get it to perform the way I wanted.....

 

 

Here's the machine. As you can see I've made an MDF frame to clamp the aluminium sheet in between. If you look closely you can see the white cylinder in the tool carriage. This is a 3D printed replacement I made to hold a cut off beading tool to give my the right rivet "shape" when in moves along. Clamping the frame to the base was also problematic, as the bottom of the base looks like the next photo....

 

 

Needless to say, it took some effort to work out where to drill the clamping screws! 

 

The next challenge was trying to work out their proprietary software. Luckily I found I could still draw most of the design in Rhino and import into the program as a dxf file, like I would for laser cutting. I then had to convert the lines I wanted as rivets to "stipple" lines. This is super cool, as it allows to control the rivet spacing and patterns, although it lacks the precision of Rhino which is a little frustrating. In the end I got there though...

 

Good rivet patterns for the B-17 wings are almost impossible to come by, but after comparison with many many photographs, I came to the conclusion that the HK presentation was actually pretty good. I then marked out and identified the individual panels I would need to make, starting at the trailing edge of the inner wing and working forward and out for the overlap.

 

 

Here's panels 1-6 look like as rivet patterns. Just so you know, this took a long time to get from the above, to the below picture.....

 

 

A close up of the rivet representations...

 

 

Once in the machine it's not too bad, just set it up and let it go. It's supposed to score out using the other (blue) tool, but I found it struggles with that task (remember this is a "craft" machine!) so I used marker "rivets" to indicate the borders of each panel for later scoring.

 

 

This is what you get once the machine has done its work. Again, because the machine is light duty, all the rivets still need to be deepened, and then pushed back from the other side....... a lot of work!!!!

 

This is what an earlier test looks like without deepening....

 

 

Fast forward to last night, when I finally was able to cut out the panels. I had incorporated what I thought was enough overlap for each piece, so I was hoping that everything would work.....

 

 

 

 

 

Here's what they looked like test fitted onto the wing. It became immediately apparent where I'd gone wrong...... As I'd measured and traced each panel individually, I'd induced errors into each piece, so when transferring them between programs, it made them even worse. Am I disappointed? Well, yes, as I spent many hours of work to get to this point only for them to be unusable, but at least I know what I did wrong. Next time around I will do the whole section as one piece in Rhino, then separate them once all the rivet lines are drawn!

 

On a positive note, it proves the process and the use of the Silhouette Curio as a means to make the initial rivet pattern, and it's easily repeatable for the right side later on!

 

Note: The above panels did not get the microscope treatment or were properly finished, I just wanted to see how they fitted....

 

Sure, it's not physical progress towards completion, but I have now developed what I hope will be a robust process for the rest of the model!

 

There's a silver lining in everything if you look hard enough right?!!!

 

Cheers,

 

Craig

 

 

 

 

[patricksparks]

18 hours ago, brahman104 said:

 

Hahaha! Thanks for the reality check as always Terry  And yes, it did seem like a bit of an oversight on HK's behalf not to include them. Perhaps they'll fix that when they bring out their C model.......... 

 

 

Thanks Tom, at least you have the benefit of experience the second time around right!

 

So another 6 weeks has flown past, what have I been up to? Lots of R&D, not so much progress towards completion though...

 

Armed with Peter's (Airscale's) Patreon videos about skinning with litho, it was definitely high time to try my own. From my early experiments with embossing divots into metal using a PE guide in 1/32 scale I knew that the probability of the template moving, even when taped, would induce too many errors on my part, so I wanted to go down a more predictable path.

 

Also, as my rivets would be applied in the reverse to Peter's (as in not countersunk like most fighters), I had to find a way to preserve the protrusions once I'd added them. During my trip to Canada a few years ago, I was fortunate to meet a Gentleman who produces some of the most exquisite models I have ever seen from scratch. If you have a few minutes, treat yourself, you won't be disappointed....

 

https://www.precisemodeling.com/

 

Anyway, he very graciously shared with me how he uses a microscope and a very small diameter tube to push down the deformation around each rivet from the top side once it has been applied from the bottom. Definitely not a quick process but once you get the hang of it, it works pretty well!

 

 

In the above photo you can see the top three rows of rivets. This is what they look like when embossed from the back.

 

 

This is the "tool" I've made. It's really just a piece of 0.018" dia stainless tube in a pin vice, and is just the right size to push back down the surrounding metal.

 

 

Here's my microscope, just a cheapie from ebay, but it's got a nice LED ring light over the end so seeing what you're doing is pretty easy.

 

 

Not the best photo, but on the right is before the area has been pushed back down, on the left has been done. They look a lot sharper!

 

 

My "working" view through the microscope...... this was super hard to photograph by the way!

 

 

This one was a comparison of various "rosie the riveter" wheels and my use of template guides...... you can see why I wanted something more precise! 

 

A few years ago I purchased a Curio craft machine from Silhouette. This is the same company that makes the mask cutters so many of us use. It's primarily designed to be used for cutting shapes out of card, but can be used to emboss designs onto light metal surfaces. However, because it is a craft tool primarily made for bored housewives to do scrapbooking (no offence intended to anyone!) it needed some tweaking to get it to perform the way I wanted.....

 

 

Here's the machine. As you can see I've made an MDF frame to clamp the aluminium sheet in between. If you look closely you can see the white cylinder in the tool carriage. This is a 3D printed replacement I made to hold a cut off beading tool to give my the right rivet "shape" when in moves along. Clamping the frame to the base was also problematic, as the bottom of the base looks like the next photo....

 

 

Needless to say, it took some effort to work out where to drill the clamping screws! 

 

The next challenge was trying to work out their proprietary software. Luckily I found I could still draw most of the design in Rhino and import into the program as a dxf file, like I would for laser cutting. I then had to convert the lines I wanted as rivets to "stipple" lines. This is super cool, as it allows to control the rivet spacing and patterns, although it lacks the precision of Rhino which is a little frustrating. In the end I got there though...

 

Good rivet patterns for the B-17 wings are almost impossible to come by, but after comparison with many many photographs, I came to the conclusion that the HK presentation was actually pretty good. I then marked out and identified the individual panels I would need to make, starting at the trailing edge of the inner wing and working forward and out for the overlap.

 

 

Here's panels 1-6 look like as rivet patterns. Just so you know, this took a long time to get from the above, to the below picture.....

 

 

A close up of the rivet representations...

 

 

Once in the machine it's not too bad, just set it up and let it go. It's supposed to score out using the other (blue) tool, but I found it struggles with that task (remember this is a "craft" machine!) so I used marker "rivets" to indicate the borders of each panel for later scoring.

 

 

This is what you get once the machine has done its work. Again, because the machine is light duty, all the rivets still need to be deepened, and then pushed back from the other side....... a lot of work!!!!

 

This is what an earlier test looks like without deepening....

 

 

Fast forward to last night, when I finally was able to cut out the panels. I had incorporated what I thought was enough overlap for each piece, so I was hoping that everything would work.....

 

 

 

 

 

Here's what they looked like test fitted onto the wing. It became immediately apparent where I'd gone wrong...... As I'd measured and traced each panel individually, I'd induced errors into each piece, so when transferring them between programs, it made them even worse. Am I disappointed? Well, yes, as I spent many hours of work to get to this point only for them to be unusable, but at least I know what I did wrong. Next time around I will do the whole section as one piece in Rhino, then separate them once all the rivet lines are drawn!

 

On a positive note, it proves the process and the use of the Silhouette Curio as a means to make the initial rivet pattern, and it's easily repeatable for the right side later on!

 

Note: The above panels did not get the microscope treatment or were properly finished, I just wanted to see how they fitted....

 

Sure, it's not physical progress towards completion, but I have now developed what I hope will be a robust process for the rest of the model!

 

There's a silver lining in everything if you look hard enough right?!!!

 

Cheers,

 

Craig

 

 

 

 

Great learning curve !!! Awesome work !!!

Pat