HK B-17...C 5/4 sweating the metal

[brahman104]

Hi Terry,

 

Absolutely no idea about the whole standing in the dome bit, although I have been wondering that myself. I've not actually looked at how tall a person would be standing in between the two seats so I'm not sure if maybe there wouldn't be a need for an extra step. I've found nothing to mention one in anything I've read (I really wish the Air force museum in Dayton would hurry up and get moving on the swoose!) but I would make sense to have one and just because you can't see one in a photo doesn't mean it isn't there!

 

Thanks very much for looking in again and for the very timely discussion points you raise, keep them coming please!

 

Cheers,

 

Craig

[TKB]

Craig,

 

I'm looking at a drawing (not actual blueprint) that appears pretty much scaled. Transposing the standing figure shown in the radioroom to the flightdeck, the top of the head is even with the roof line and not into the dome.

 

Have you glued the seats in position yet? To throw a fly in the ointment; the same drawing is showing the two rear seats slightly lower the the pilot/co-pilot seats, which don't make much sense, unless they are shown in the lowered position.

 

Like I said, this is off a general drawing, but it is a Boeing drawing.

 

Terry.

[brahman104]

Craig,

 

I'm looking at a drawing (not actual blueprint) that appears pretty much scaled. Transposing the standing figure shown in the radioroom to the flightdeck, the top of the head is even with the roof line and not into the dome.

 

Have you glued the seats in position yet? To throw a fly in the ointment; the same drawing is showing the two rear seats slightly lower the the pilot/co-pilot seats, which don't make much sense, unless they are shown in the lowered position.

 

Like I said, this is off a general drawing, but it is a Boeing drawing.

 

Terry.

 

Thanks Terry!

 

I have actually glued the seats in but I think I can live with that. However I do feel you are correct with your height estimations.....

 

What I did notice today when looking at it, was that from the bottom of the cockpit door to the bottom of the floor is roughly 10.5mm which in scale is quite a large drop, so it's entirely possible that there was kind of an "intermediate" step which would then double as a place to stand in the observation dome. Hopefully you can see what I mean below...

 

 

So this could be my "get out of jail free card." All I have to do is build a little raised platform between the two rear seats and all should return to being believable again.... Any thoughts on this? 

 

A little update now. I made the control yokes with a combination of heat formed styrene (in boiling water) and some heavy duty aluminium foil pressed down over a pattern. I then backfilled the shape with 5 minute epoxy and there you have it

 

 

 

 

And a comparison to the kit one, which I believe the shape is correct for F models onwards, with the E retaining the old style from what I've seen...

 

 

And installed with the seatbelt painted.... starting to look like a cockpit now!

 

 

Next step is getting the underfloor area ready for paint as well as some lighting and details in the overhead panel. Stay tuned...

 

Craig

[LSP_Kevin]

Impressive stuff, Craig! This is coming together really nicely now.

 

Kev

[Loic]

   

[B17guy2003]

Hello!

Long time "lurker", here and finally decided to get an account. I've been following this wonderful build from the start and am very impressed!

 

I compiled a bit of research on the early models for a 48 scale -B project that has now been placed indefinitely on hold, and some cad stuff. I think I can help with the observation dome step question.

 

Here is a scan from the B-17C manual that identifies an "observation step" on the rear bulkhead:

 

 

And here is a clearer technical photo showing that's more of a little ladder than a box as one would have expected.

 

 

On the topic of seat supports, here's a shot of the Swoose I found off Google image search a few years back that shows the rear support. Although the padding is faded, the metal components show the original bronze green to good effect:

 

 

I've got some other references if interested... I haven't confirmed it for the -c yet, but the -b had a folding map table on the back of the copilot seat. There's also a very unique panel that sits on top of the instrument panel for all versions up to -d that had Id lights and warning indicators in it. Hope this helps!

Look forward to seeing more!

Best,

Trystan

[LSP_Kevin]

Welcome aboard, Trystan!

 

 

Thanks for chiming in with such great information for Craig's build.

 

Kev

[brahman104]

Thanks Kev and Loic!

 

Trystan, welcome indeed and thanks very much for chipping in with some very useful info! Thanks heaps for the photos too.... I haven't seen those before, but it appears my assumptions were correct... good to know. I do see that that C photo shows back armour... oh well can't win them all I suppose and it may have not always been a standard fit depending on the time period.

 

Between yourself and Terry, I have pretty much everything I need covered. Thanks again!

 

I'm glad you're enjoying the build mate, feel free to comment or query at any point

 

Cheers,

 

Craig

[B17guy2003]

Thanks for the welcome!

 

Regarding the armor, the second photo is also confirmed to be a -c, and it doesn't have the seat armor. Most photos I've seen of the c/d lack the armor, actually, so you're still spot on. I suspect the T/o photos are of fully kitted out aircraft showing "what's possible", but not always found in production.

 

I can send the -c manual scan in pdf if interested... Pretty sure I found it on another forum awhile back.

 

It has some useful system diagrams, a few photos, but more useful, a full description of the auxiliary equipment and locations.

 

Cheers,

 

Trystan

[brahman104]

Craig,

 

I have absolutely no idea how I missed this build, but I have spent the last 90 minutes reading every single post and comment here.

this is absolutely astounding work in every way, and has seriously gotten my 'juices' flowing.

I love the look of the early model B-17, and you're nailing it, sir!

I have a project or two germinating in the back of my mind that I want to attempt one of these years, especially a certain twin engine Curtiss transport, and I've come to the realization that the only way I'm ever going to get there is to do it myself.

 

Your quick mastering, or at least understanding, the basics of CAD is amazing. I've done a bit of reading on the subject, and I'm almost of the opinion that it's beyond me.

you're ability to see these shapes in space looks like it's saved you countless months of the old fashioned way of drawing, cutting, gluing, planking, shaping, sanding, tossing it out, and redoing it until it's close.

The attention to the smallest detail you have been showing here is just amazing to me. Being able to jump from the basic forming of a fuselage shape to micro detailing a throttle pedestal is mind blowing.

 

Keep up the awesomeness, and I'll keep drooling and dreaming...

 

Ernie

 

Hi Ernie,

 

Thank you! I'm really glad you stumbled upon the build and it's providing you with some enjoyment.

 

I wouldn't say CAD is beyond anyone's skills really, I looked at the incredible work Peter was able to achieve in a very short space of time and just figured you've got to start somewhere right? His work is much, much more advanced than mine but I picked up enough of the basics to make me dangerous without too much trouble.

 

I agree wholeheartedly that this new technology has the definite potential for anyone to make into reality those long dreamt about projects and I certainly can't see a C-46 being any more challenging than what I've done here. I think like anything, trying to get the best references you can to go off is the hardest part, but at the end of the day if you as the modeller are happy with it then that's all that matters!

 

It has, as you said, certainly saved me a TON of work in vac forming and prototyping and the very best parts are that if it's symmetrical, you only have to draw it once, once you've drawn it you can set up the printer and go to bed (so it's modelling without the time investment!) and if you stuff up a part just print a new one!

 

One of my long term dreams is a large scale CH-21. Yet another advantage for me personally, given that I'm away for work a lot, is that I can still continue to design and effectively build while I'm away, so that when I do get home, it's straight into the physical modelling we all love so much I think that project will be one I'll look at during my next big stint away from home.

 

Thanks again Ernie and I hope you continue to follow along on the journey.

 

Cheers,

 

Craig

[TKB]

Trystan,

Welcome.

First time I have ever seen any rear facing photo of a early B-17 cockpit. Thank you!

Goes to show you; there's always someone, somewhere with the answers --- with documentation!

Observation dome step/platform mystert solved.

 

Craig,

If you didn't post WIP photos of the control yoke, I'd swear you found an aftermarket cast resin part!

That is some really remarkable work on such a small part. You certainly know how to "think out of the box".

If the praises given you so far on this build embarrass you in any way, you'd beter just get use to it! Hopefully the recognition you're receiving will keep your build juices flowing.

 

Terry

[brahman104]

Hi Trystan,

 

Cheers, yes I agree that may the case with the armour. I actually found in the depths of my hard drive a B-17D E&M manual, but I can always use more reference material if you're willing to to assist, thank you for your offer. I'll PM you offline.

 

Terry,

Thanks as always for your kind words mate. I'm pretty happy with the way they came out. Often I'll just get a concept pop up in my brain and 80% of the time it works out pretty well. I could have taken some more time to ensure each was perfectly 120 degrees apart but they seem close enough and they fit in the centre so good enough for me I was actually considering trying to 3D print them, but this was more fun. I don't think technology for all its benefits will ever replace good old fashioned modelling skills...

 

Cheers,

 

Craig

[TKB]

Criag,

 

Sometimes, in modeling, "close enough" is the best you can do. Most would go with the kit F/G yoke. You took it a step further, because you know the distinctive difference between Y1B-17 through B-17E yoke, compared to the F/G. So, if a nit-picker wants to point out the your yoke spokes aren't spaced properly ---- like I said in my opening posts, "lets see yours"

 

A lot of your interior work is going to end up hidden, but it is pretty safe to say you are a "but I know it is there" modeler. That's not everyones "cup of tea" and that's fine. For others, getting it right is part of the fun and challenge. When I was actively modeling, I admit this could at times get to be a pain. When I knew something needed correction, I couldn't let it go --- because "I knew."

 

Your work is appreciated by us all and I know you must get a lot of self satisfaction from it as well.

 

Terry

[TKB]

Trystan,

 

Not to hijack things from Craig, but was your B-17 project the one being done on another sight by "Second Air Force?"

I was following that 1/48 WIP --- there was some amazing work being done on that early B-17.

Postings seemed to come to an abrupt halt in April, 2011. When you said that your project was on hold, I thought you might be "Second Air Force,"

 

 

Terry

[B17guy2003]

Terry, 

 

No, that wasn't me.   My abandoned one was here: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/start-to-finish-builds/17b-1-48-scale-wip-32978.htmlcirca 2012. 

The blisters were a right pain.  It actually progressed a little bit further than indicated there, but ended abruptly when an attempt to plate it with aluminum just didn't quite work as planned. I have another Koster conversion kit (for the C\D) that I've been hoping to use as a scale-template for doing a 3d printed tail some day. Afraid to use it for a model, since I fear it will be practically impossible to get another one again.  Some day... 

 

I've been following AirScale's Tigershark thread very carefully in an attempt to improve my plating skills. Absolutely amazing stuff you guys do here. 

Cheers, 

 

Trystan

 

 

Trystan,

 

Not to hijack things from Craig, but was your B-17 project the one being done on another sight by "Second Air Force?"

I was following that 1/48 WIP --- there was some amazing work being done on that early B-17.

Postings seemed to come to an abrupt halt in April, 2011. When you said that your project was on hold, I thought you might be "Second Air Force,"

 

 

Terry