A few questions on F-4 Phantom loadouts in Vietnam

[BradG]

I have an interest in the air war over North Vietnam but in my fairly basic research and hearing some pilots speak of their engagements, it appears that Phantoms didn't always carry a full set of missiles; 4 AIM-7 and 4 AIM-9. A friend of mine said it was due to drag which I'm sure probably had something to do with it, along with other loads it was carrying like bombs, but I'm wondering if there were any guidelines to how the aircraft were loaded for each mission. Did it depend on the pilot, ground crew or other factors to determine how many of each missile an aircraft carried on any particular mission?

 

As I understand it, the F-4's were initially set up to fire AIM 7 on the fuselage mounts and AIM-4 from the inboard pylons, but due to the AIM-4 being a complete POS, Phantoms were wired up in the field to fire AIM-9. Did this mean the modified aircraft were no longer able to fire AIM-4? I also assume that they would only carry 1 AIM-4 on each pylon?

 

Lastly, when was the AIM-4 discontinued from service in Vietnam? I know there were only a few kills with the weapon and those were before 1969, but in reading about Operation Linebacker, Oyster flight carried the missile during it's morning engagement. Was the air force running out of AIM-9 to equip all aircraft or were some aircraft not modified or what?

 

TIA.

Edited October 9, 2013 by BradG

[blackbetty]

for the first question i would say it depended a) on the mission and on the route pack the plane was going to.

if it was a migcap mission it would carry a full loadout, only decreased by the ecm pods carried (most of the time in the forward sparrow wells) 

 

when hauling boms most of the time the air to air loadouts were reduced to aim 7s only because of drag/weight, these also later on decreased by ecm pods

this often left the planes with just two shots for defence, keep in mind the early sparrows were not very reliable......and no internal gun until the E

when going into route pack 1 or 2 (in country) missile loadouts was often left off completely due to the threat being very low 

 

i think the aim 4s had different launchers, so they could probably be carried later on too, but i dont know for sure

Edited October 9, 2013 by blackbetty

[wunwinglow]

I've studied a few pilots log books (not for these types or forces, but pilots logs are pretty much universal! ) and they frequently mention the load-out on a particular mission. If you can track down some appropriate documentation, you might get a seam of gold for this sort of data. Now, where is Tony T when you really need him?!

 

Tim

[Night Hog]

The loadout was determined by the "Frag(mentary)" Order handed down from 7th AF. There was little local option for loadout. As to the AIM-4, it was a lousy missile. Relability was horrid. The first F-4Cs were hard wired for the AIM-4. The F4Ds were wired for the AIM-9. All Navy F-4s carried the AIM-9. The AIM-4 went the way of the passenger pidgeon.

[Barry]

It was dictated by the mission requirements...the "frag" as noted.

The Phantom as devised was a "Fleet" defense platform intended to intercept incoming bombers/fighters before they reached the fleet.

As originally configured t would carry 6 AIM-7 missiles; 4 fuselage stations and 1 on each inboard pylons which by the way were designated LAU-7/A and were specifically designed to carry the AIM-7.

That is why all USN and the early USAF F-4C Phantoms had to use a Bomb Adapter to carry bombs on stations 2 and 8.

 

Barry

[Mark B.]

Not meaning to hijack the thread but this is about F-4 Phantom load outs in Vietnam albeit USN load outs.  I have often wondered why the USN flew with only 2 AIM-7s most of the time.  I didn't realize that the USN only used 2 Sparrows until I did research on my VMF-333 F-4J.  I mean the F-4B/J/N only had 8 shots max and they (USN) went in 2 down from the get go...  Kind of adds a lot to Lt. Cunningham's and Lt. Driscoll's little exploit on 8 May 1972. 

[BradG]

Oh hijack away Mark, I was interested in both USN and USAF aircraft. For the USN, Curt Dose's engagement over Kep on May 10th 1972 saw him carry only 2 sidewinder, firing both and was then out of ammo due to his RIO being unable to break out the MiGs on radar for a sparrow shot. Although later that day, 'Matt' Connerlly fired 3 sidewinders for 2 kills in Showtime 106. Why did he carry more? Cunningham and Driscoll fired 3 sidewinders too. Even  few weeks later on June 2nd, Phil Handley (USAF) carried only 2 AIM-7 and two AIM-4 on his MiG killing mission. This is only known because he fired all 4 weapons and each failed, his kill was with the 20mm cannon.

 

There doesn't seem to be a pattern to me, making it hard to accurately model an aircraft before the engagement, which was kinda my idea here. Unless I was able to find a pic before the aircraft took off, it seems like I may be having to take a bit of an educated guess as the loads for some aircraft.

[Tony T]

I have an interest in the air war over North Vietnam but in my fairly basic research and hearing some pilots speak of their engagements, it appears that Phantoms didn't always carry a full set of missiles; 4 AIM-7 and 4 AIM-9. A friend of mine said it was due to drag which I'm sure probably had something to do with it, along with other loads it was carrying like bombs, but I'm wondering if there were any guidelines to how the aircraft were loaded for each mission. Did it depend on the pilot, ground crew or other factors to determine how many of each missile an aircraft carried on any particular mission?

 

As I understand it, the F-4's were initially set up to fire AIM 7 on the fuselage mounts and AIM-4 from the inboard pylons, but due to the AIM-4 being a complete POS, Phantoms were wired up in the field to fire AIM-9. Did this mean the modified aircraft were no longer able to fire AIM-4? I also assume that they would only carry 1 AIM-4 on each pylon?

 

Lastly, when was the AIM-4 discontinued from service in Vietnam? I know there were only a few kills with the weapon and those were before 1969, but in reading about Operation Linebacker, Oyster flight carried the missile during it's morning engagement. Was the air force running out of AIM-9 to equip all aircraft or were some aircraft not modified or what?

 

TIA.

You need to identify an era and mission scenario.

 

The USAF used the AIM-4D on F-4Ds until around June-July 1972, by which time there existed enough Sidewinders and rails. It was then that the wide chord, cranked canard AIM-9Js were introduced, though its predecessor the AIM-9E (pointy nose like the J, but small triangular forward steering wings) was still in use for several years.

 

AIM-7s were limited because of weight/cg issues, scarcity on USN carriers at times, and so forth. The main type used during the 1972 Linebacker era was the AIM-7E2, which had slightly less steering fin chord and distinct 'L' shaped markings on these. There also existed the need to drop the c/l tank before firing AIM-7s if carrying four.

 

Two AIM-7s aft, and two or four AIM-9Gs or E/Js is a safe bet for mid-late 1972, with the option of AIM-4Ds on earlier USAF F-4s.

 

Remember, USAF jets often used one or both forward Sparrow wells for ECM jamming pods.

 

HTH

 

Tony T

Edited October 11, 2013 by Tony T

[Dave Williams]

Also, I believe that during Vietnam, only the Navy F-4s could carry both Sidewinders and A/G ordnance on the inboard pylons.  I think for USAF F-4s at the time, the inboards could carry either Sidewinders on the side or bombs underneath, but not both at the same time.

[curtdose]

Oh hijack away Mark, I was interested in both USN and USAF aircraft. For the USN, Curt Dose's engagement over Kep on May 10th 1972 saw him carry only 2 sidewinder, firing both and was then out of ammo due to his RIO being unable to break out the MiGs on radar for a sparrow shot. Although later that day, 'Matt' Connerlly fired 3 sidewinders for 2 kills in Showtime 106. Why did he carry more? Cunningham and Driscoll fired 3 sidewinders too. Even  few weeks later on June 2nd, Phil Handley (USAF) carried only 2 AIM-7 and two AIM-4 on his MiG killing mission. This is only known because he fired all 4 weapons and each failed, his kill was with the 20mm cannon.

 

There doesn't seem to be a pattern to me, making it hard to accurately model an aircraft before the engagement, which was kinda my idea here. Unless I was able to find a pic before the aircraft took off, it seems like I may be having to take a bit of an educated guess as the loads for some aircraft.

Hi. This is Curt Dose', pilot of the VF-92 F-4J in question on 10May1972. We were carrying 4 AIM-9 Sidewinders and 4 AIM-7 Sparrows that day with a centerline tank, and this was normal for that '71-'72 cruise. I attempted to fire 4 Sidewinders during the 2 F-4J v 7 MiG-21 engagement. The second Sidewinder fired shot down a MiG-21. The third shot attempt had a miss-fire on he motor and stayed on the airplane. Shots 1 and 4 tracked and exploded but could not manage the final high G turn to intercept. Randy in VF-96 would have had the same 4 + 4, centerline tank configuration. Exciting day!

[LSP_Kevin]

Hi. This is Curt Dose', pilot of the VF-92 F-4J in question on 10May1972.

 

Welcome aboard, Curt!

 

 

We're honoured to have you here.

 

Kev

[BradG]

Hi. This is Curt Dose', pilot of the VF-92 F-4J in question on 10May1972. We were carrying 4 AIM-9 Sidewinders and 4 AIM-7 Sparrows that day with a centerline tank, and this was normal for that '71-'72 cruise. I attempted to fire 4 Sidewinders during the 2 F-4J v 7 MiG-21 engagement. The second Sidewinder fired shot down a MiG-21. The third shot attempt had a miss-fire on he motor and stayed on the airplane. Shots 1 and 4 tracked and exploded but could not manage the final high G turn to intercept. Randy in VF-96 would have had the same 4 + 4, centerline tank configuration. Exciting day!

 

Cool, thanks mate. I have to say I never expected a reply from someone who was there on the day!