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paul fisher

So what about a hybrid Vac/resin kit?

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I had an ID Models B-17 where the fuselage was pre cut from the sheet, but this didn't mean it was ready to join to it's twin, it still required sanding.

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Having had 'a go' at producing some vacform kits some time back I can tell you that to do a large scale aircraft the main shell of the airframe has to be done in vac to cut down the huge weight and of course relevant costs of the end product.

Male moulds do alleviate the problems of perceived 'incorrect' panel lines from the modeller so they can engrave them to their own satisfaction which settles any arguments.

Whatever you do there will always be controversy over detailing and shapes, it's part of the hobby.

However, tailoring the product to this niche market does work and is popular amongst those modelers.

With the greatest respect to some on here who freely admit to being more assemblers than traditional modelers that are prepared to 'cut and shut' and 'correct' errors they are NOT the market for this type of product regardless of the quality.

Instead, focus on the small group out there who WILL definitely buy it and work with them through the process. It worked well for me and I made some great friends in the process of doing it!

Before, I ventured into other business I had the plans drawn up, and some work started, on two 1/24 scale projects the, BAe Hawk T1 and the Blackburn Firebrand.

The latter being a personal project but it did ignite quite a bit of interest from those in the know at the time who asked for it to be produced as a multi media kit.

I think you'd do well, although producing fifty kits per batch would be a realistic target to start with.

Base your figures on that and you'll not be far off to start with I think.

If you do decide to go ahead I look forward to seeing them in due course, you do some great work!

Good luck.

Roy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Perhaps start with a vac conversion to an existing kit........Say an RF-8 conversion for the trumpeter kit. I know that tigger models has one but based on the article of the built bird it is very difficult to use as it was based on a full kit many moons ago.

 

As far as my example, RF 8

 

A new fuselage, proper control panel.....maybe use the c nose as a basis and do a resin nose with intake like the c conversion. The necessary part to match the wings up so the thicker fuselage and a couple sets of markings.

 

You could use kit parts or

 

Aires/BB pit

 

Aires Wheel wells

 

G Factor gear

 

Perhaps this could be a good intro to a Fisher Vac line.....and I am sure there are other examples that can be used for conversion.

 

O'

 

The skywarrior and demon mentioned a ways back.....yes please lol.

Edited by Rob Colvin

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Hi Paul,

I would say go for it begining with a 1:32 scale Wyvern!! That is a very interesting aircraft and worthy of our scale!

I like the idea of a mixed media kit.... one of the biggest turn-offs for me in vac kits of the past are the blobs of resin that were sold to detail them. I believe that if an accurate scale vac kit is provided with superior resin details then the kit sells itself!

Looking forward to whatever you decide to produce!

Cheers

Alan

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Well, today i saw and was able to closely inspect a Fisher Ryan kit. I was absolutely staggered!

Heaven knows I'm a fussy devil, but this was something else! The one thing that totally blew me away was the tiny row of cast resin cylinders. Every single fin was there, topped off by a tiny pair of rocker covers on top of one of which, readable only with a glass, was the word Kinner. To top even that off there are three perfect tiny angled fins between the rocker cover and the head. They are maybe 7 thou. thick.

The crankcase is so thin, by design, you can almost see through it.

Contrary to what you might glean from Paul himself, the white metal parts are beautifully mastered and cast. I was shown these models (the other was an HPH kit of almost similar quality) as the benchmark for what is expected of me when I make a master for a new line of kits (or at least two amongst patterns from other modelmakers).

I have a hell of a task ahead of me. The cylinder I saw was, I know, done by CAD and presumably SLS as I've never seen a 3D print that fine and it could not be done by hand that crisply. Did I mention all the bolt heads round the base and under the heads?

Maybe it's time I finally sourced a s/h computer capable of running CAD software and remains uncluttered by grandchildren, dogs and fast cars and get the hang of this CAD mallarky, because it CAN be mighty impressive.

Paul, you always did some luvverly car models. Now you have surpassed yourself with the Ryan. What made the impression even more memorable was that I had minutes before walked past the real aircraft at Old Warden.

 

Cheers,

Martin

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Hi Martin,

Thanks you very much indeed, I am glad to have pleased with the Ryan.The inline engined ST is well along now .Can't wait to see the DH-89...long a favorite of mine.

 

The cylinder heads were indeed drawn in CAD and 3D printed at an absurdly high resolution, which i paid an absurdly high price for...but that's how it goes in this digital age.Landing gear legs I mastered in brass and yes, they are white metal as I have had such problems getting timely delivery of the investment cast bronze stuff.Seems the foundry is only able to burn out waxes once a week due to environmental laws and this has slowed them down.

 

paul

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Paul,

credit where it is rightly due, mate!

I'm still boring people with it.

 

Well, the last two days have left us dusty and with flat knees, scuffed shoes and more photos and dimensions than you can shake a stick at. DH89 and Folland Gnat sorted. The staff at Newark Air Museum were as helpful as Old Warden, but the food in their cafe was MUCH cheaper! Another lovely day in which John Adams called in at the Museum with his Spaniel, Lucy and gave me a set of his civilian lettering decals and the kind offer of his file of Gnat details. How nice was that?

Now for a serious clear up and some BIG drawings!

 

Onward and upward.

 

Cheers,

Martin

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For me the deciding factor in buying or not buying a multi-media kit is the clear canopy part. If it is VAC, then it is NOT for me.

 

 

MAK

Edited by MAK

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MAK, to be honest, if you can't cut and trim a half decent vacuum formed canopy, these kits will never be your cup of tea, which is fine, but similarly, you'll never have a near scale thickness canopy either.

I make canopies and I also do windows for slot cars amongst much else and they will fit without glue. It's all down to the patternmaking and the attention of the vac-former operator. In the first case me, in the second, my older son. We're a good team. All glazing I do has a cut line. Trim to that and the glazing will fit.

 

Cheers,

Martin

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Hi Paul,

 

Just a heads up, you may already be aware of this, but someone else has been working on a full resin 1/32 MB.5 for some time. I would expect to hear more about it soon. Cheers.

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Hello Paul,

Getting back to my original comment, it occurred to me that there are two objectionable areas for many modelers when it comes to plastic model kits.

1) Vacuforms require a great deal of work cutting out the parts and then sanding the backs to make them fit together properly.

2) Cleaning off the thick sprues and even the flash from the parts of the kits is even more work.

OK, so we tell these guys to stick with Injection Molded kits and stay away from vacs and resin kits. I am not saying anything against the OOB builders of IM kits. Everybody is different. But they will seldom buy a resin kit and almost never buy a vac. Well, on occasion they will buy one to feel that they have that airplane but it stays in the attic, unbuilt.

So you are talking to the guys who build resin kits and who buy resin parts to enhance their vacs and IM kits.

But even a lot of the resin buyers shy away from the vac kits. So why not make it easier for them to use the vac parts? Make the vac kit more like the IM or resin kits they are used to.

How about investing in a used press and making your own thin steel dies. In other words, die cut the vac parts out of the raw vac draw. Now the guys do not have to do that onerous activity.

Next, how to sand the bottoms of the cut out vac parts so they match? Well draw the vacs deeper. Then place the die cut part in a fixture (which you make) and cut or grind it flat on the bottom. That way you have given the modeler vacuformed parts that can be glued together immediately as if they were IM parts. That would relieve the modeler of the two onerous chores he dislikes.

Yes, that would require extra work from you and the purchase of more machinery. But with companies folding all over the place because of outsourcing second hand machinery is available at reasonable prices. Besides you will be saving the time, trouble and expense of making replacement RTV molds all the time as the old ones wear out (we know that they have a short life when production cranks up).

The idea is to make the vac-resin kit as close to an Injection Molded kit as possible to get a higher volume of sales.

 

As to which airplane you will produce in this manner, well that is up to you. Everyone is pushing for their own favorite airplanes and I do not envy you your position.

 

I had this idea years ago but I would have produced simplified kits. I do not like casting resin parts in RTV molds and I do not do what I do not like to do. So I thought to make a vacuform kit like the old stick and tissue kits where in addition to the vacuform parts I would include die cut fuselage formers which could be assembled onto spines and for long wingspan multi-engine aircraft kits, include carbon fiber beams as spars for the wings. Then it would be up to the buyer to kit-bash the rest, taking parts from other airplane kits and/or scratch building the parts himself.

You, on the other hand, being a resin parts manufacturer, can combine vacs with resin and offer complete kits. 

I like your idea and if you decide to go that way I wish you the best of good fortune.

If I can be of assistance in any way let me know.

Stephen

Yes, at one time I saw myself as a small manufacturer. Just another pipe dream.

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Stephen ...

 

As a modeler my main skill set is in the small details - within the big picture ... not on one kit alone ... but on multiple kits within a diorama.

 

I focus on:

 

* The enjoyment of building - in the sense of putting together lots of little detailed parts that are pre-formed (ie. clean, paint, assemble!) ... rather than the frustration of fabrication (ie. 'scratch building') ...

* Detailing that assembly using ready made parts - such as Master Barrels, PE, Resin upgrades etc ...

* Weathering or otherwise shaping the object within it's surrounds.

* Forming the dioramas with multiple displays within the one.

 

As such ... The idea of Vac Form or Resin does not really phase me ... what does, however, is that there is stuff all detail supplied with a vac form kit ... or at least none that is any real use!

Things like turrets, canopies, landing gear, internal detailing (instruments, wheels, levers etc) are either supplied in a crude vac form or must be scratch built! ... or if (and that is a big 'IF') they are supplied in resin ... they have to be bought separately ...

 

I have watched a build thread on one of (two of) my desired subjects - a 1/32 Ju-52 Transport. so much has to be scratchbuilt that you might as well get a big 3D printer and CAD a Ju-52 to begin with! ... Now ... if, hypothetically, a manufacturer were to Vac Form the basic shell ... and THEN also provide a bunch of resin components such as:

- landing gear, gear bays, cockpit, engines, propellors, canopy, armament etc

- structural stuff (like wing braces to hold the kit together)

- PE ... to detail up the cockpit instrumentation

- Decals ...

 

THEN ... I would consider buying something like that ... because even though it will take more effort to build than an IM or full resin kit, at least I know that if I am careful enough - everything is present in the box to put together a fully assembled scale replica of what I'm after :)

 

Rog :)

Edited by Artful69

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