Guest KingK_series Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 (edited) I'll post some photos tomorrow AM since photobucket is down for maintenance right now. In the meantime, there are some in my review here. Doug For instance the overall length I have for a JU87B2 is 11.1m Without getting into phoitographic/scan enlargements which can be very unreliable, that length corresponds to 15.4cm in 1/72 scale the MMP drawing that you have scaled from measures 15.5mm on the page in 1/72 scale and the drawings in the Creek book are 15.55mm long - so the drawings look overscale, and certainly not accurate before you start scaling up.... on the cowl rad shape, you are completely right... there is lots of work to do, but a serious study of the Creek, MMP books but most importantly of the Chicago 87 will show you how many variations in shape there were..... and it is clear that this came from different presses in the different factories, the sole existing B in Chicago has a very different shape to the intake drawing you have scaled up in your review. That is why if you really want to understand these issues, let alone just make accurate models, considerable research is necessary I feel, and most importantly visting existing aircraft. simon Edited January 11, 2013 by KingK_series Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougN Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 (edited) As promised, here are some photos of the Trumpy nose that illustrate the smallness issue: Nose aligned at the firewall on the plans from the MMP book: Here are some photos from the accurate replacement spinner prop look like on the kit nose listed above. Dimensions used to create the replacement parts are shown on the instructions: These photos nicely shows how the nose is too "pointy": Hope this helps illustrate the problems being discussed. Doug Edited January 11, 2013 by DougN nmayhew 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KingK_series Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 (edited) As promised, here are some photos of the Trumpy nose that illustrate the smallness issue: Nose aligned at the firewall on the plans from the MMP book: Here are some photos from the accurate replacement spinner prop look like on the kit nose listed above. Dimensions used to create the replacement parts are shown on the instructions: These photos nicely shows how the nose is too "pointy": Hope this helps illustrate the problems being discussed. Doug now you see that's interesting, because this resin spinner is given as with a length of 19.5mm, add o.45mm for a gap beteween fusilage and spinner ie 2cm, add 2cmto a trumpeter fusilage and rudder of 30.15+2.5 = 32.65 +2 =34.65 which in 1/32 is 0.53mm too short - and the exact gap that I would stand the cowl off the fusilage top give the vent gap that I have spoken of, in other words the Trumpeter fusilage is reasonably accurate, and the kit spinner is 1.65 instead of 1.95mm long. This kit is no worse than most kits and a reasonable start for a well researched build. It also lends weight to the feeling that the MMP drawing as you show it - is too long? Edited January 11, 2013 by KingK_series Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougN Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 KingK, the problem with your theory(ies) is that the rest of the Trumpeter kit exactly matches the MMP plans. So if they are wrong as you claim, then the rest of the kit is also wrong. So, using your theory(ies), you would need to make the cowl longer and the fuselage, wings, etc. shorter. The photos I posted also show that the nose it too pointy, regardless of whether your theory(ies) on the accuracy of the plans is correct since an accurately sized spinner back plate highlights this. You should also note that I aligned the part on the nose side of the "gap" you are on about, so that part is taken out of the equation. The fact that the nose is too small and pointy is visually evident when comparing the built kit to any photo (or actual airframe) of the real aircraft. This is what caused me to look at this area, and the photos above confirm it. If it was just a matter of adding a mm or two of material to make it longer, I would not even be worried about it. However, to correct the pointyness of the nose will clearly require major effort. I have ordered the corrected spinner/prop and will do some comparisons with it on the 21C and Revell kit noses as well once it arrives and post my results. The 21C nose, while also a bit small, does have a better shape to the radiator bottom so it might be a better start for correction. It is also does not seem quite as "pointy" as the Trumpeter kit, however, we'll see for sure once I get the new spinner to make an informed comparison. The Revell nose may also be an option, as it seems to align better with the plans when placed all the way forward, and it might be a case of just needing to add 2mm to 3mm to the rear to get it to look right. Again, once I get the new parts, I plan to do an comparison article on all 3 Ju87B kits. Doug nmayhew 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmayhew Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 nice pics Doug - says it all really: shape is not perfect but about ok, just someone fired the shrink ray at it! anyway, i posted this in the thread on the main LSP forum, but will repeat it here for your reference: Derek looks like he may run with a project to do the easy add-on stuff: - spats - spat propellers - wheels - bomb cradle (will probably come with a 250 bomb) - Trop filter http://sparforums.com/ipb/index.php?/topic/2930-trumpeter-132-ju87-what-aftermarket-would-you-like-open-letter-to-manufacturers/ i will be donating (lending hopefully!) my kit for him to have some plastic in his hands, and trying to post a series of useful reference pics in the above thread; when my Kagero Monograph IV arrives - and if it does indeed have some plans (vol III is utterly devoid of them and basically pretty useless in this regard) - if will scan them and post them to him of course feel free if you already have plans etc to do the honours! PS please don't ask about the A series - i am not giving him my kit to make upgrades for this variant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KingK_series Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 KingK, the problem with your theory(ies) is that the rest of the Trumpeter kit exactly matches the MMP plans. So if they are wrong as you claim, then the rest of the kit is also wrong. So, using your theory(ies), you would need to make the cowl longer and the fuselage, wings, etc. shorter. The photos I posted also show that the nose it too pointy, regardless of whether your theory(ies) on the accuracy of the plans is correct since an accurately sized spinner back plate highlights this. You should also note that I aligned the part on the nose side of the "gap" you are on about, so that part is taken out of the equation. The fact that the nose is too small and pointy is visually evident when comparing the built kit to any photo (or actual airframe) of the real aircraft. This is what caused me to look at this area, and the photos above confirm it. If it was just a matter of adding a mm or two of material to make it longer, I would not even be worried about it. However, to correct the pointyness of the nose will clearly require major effort. I have ordered the corrected spinner/prop and will do some comparisons with it on the 21C and Revell kit noses as well once it arrives and post my results. The 21C nose, while also a bit small, does have a better shape to the radiator bottom so it might be a better start for correction. It is also does not seem quite as "pointy" as the Trumpeter kit, however, we'll see for sure once I get the new spinner to make an informed comparison. The Revell nose may also be an option, as it seems to align better with the plans when placed all the way forward, and it might be a case of just needing to add 2mm to 3mm to the rear to get it to look right. Again, once I get the new parts, I plan to do an comparison article on all 3 Ju87B kits. Doug No you misunderstand me - I totally agree the cowl is incorrect, but it makes a very attractive out of the box kit as Tigger has shown in his super build in this thread with only very minor mods however for anyone who wants to be accurate it needs work - like most kits - including the Tamiya spitfire which needs considerable reworking of the fusilage shape behind the cockipt to be accurate - like an Eduard 109..... I am doing some bf109Ds at the moment from the Allycat Eduard combination, the Eduard like the Trumpy 87 is a great starting point, the Allycat is so inaccurate I just binned it and it's all scratch built forward of the wing..... but some are perfectly happy with the ED/Allycat kits. - penty of people will build Tamiya Spits and Eduard 109s without a thought of modding them I have 2 trumpeter 87s - they will get comprehensively reworked in the builds - fusilage ahead of the fin, slats, cockpit will get junked, spinners props, spats, and as you say engine cowl and rad, the shape of the cowl behind the spinner into the rad housing is a very sophisticated shape - it will be a lot of fun doing that, the immense differences in the rad housing between a B1 and B2...... fun fun fun..... the delicate shape of the rad intake gills, [which are just as obviously wrong as the airscrew or the cowl] - all of it, ....... but with all due respect I think Tiggers model with the minor mods to spats and chin make a really attractive build - congratulations to him. each to his own...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KingK_series Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 (edited) KingK, the problem with your theory(ies) is that the rest of the Trumpeter kit exactly matches the MMP plans. So if they are wrong as you claim, then the rest of the kit is also wrong. So, using your theory(ies), you would need to make the cowl longer and the fuselage, wings, etc. shorter. The photos I posted also show that the nose it too pointy, regardless of whether your theory(ies) on the accuracy of the plans is correct since an accurately sized spinner back plate highlights this. You should also note that I aligned the part on the nose side of the "gap" you are on about, so that part is taken out of the equation. The fact that the nose is too small and pointy is visually evident when comparing the built kit to any photo (or actual airframe) of the real aircraft. This is what caused me to look at this area, and the photos above confirm it. If it was just a matter of adding a mm or two of material to make it longer, I would not even be worried about it. However, to correct the pointyness of the nose will clearly require major effort. Doug The Kagero drawings [for what they are worth] have the cowl 42mm long front to join in front of the cockpit in 1/48, thats 63mm multipied up to 1/32 the Trumpeter cowls at that point are...... 63mm long the MMP drawing is 28mm long measured with accurate digital verniers multipy by 2.25 to generate 1/32 and you have 63.mm ...........................there you go the Trumpeter agrees with the Kagero and both agree with the MMP, mathematically scaled Edited January 11, 2013 by KingK_series Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSP_Kevin Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 OK fellas, you might want to continue this discussion in Nick's aftermarket thread, and confine further comments in this thread to John's terrific build. Kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek B Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 John, Congratulations on your award winning Stuka and your expected stunning forthcoming feature in MAI - Well done Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KingK_series Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 John, Congratulations on your award winning Stuka and your expected stunning forthcoming feature in MAI - Well done Derek I second that, a very very good looking build, thankyou for sharing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave J Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 (edited) For those that don't know the issue is now out that feature has John's Ju87... I have downloaded it this morning and had a quick read of it into work. Edited January 15, 2013 by moeggo Derek B 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Howie Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Dont bother comparing it to he Revell kit as it has big issues if not bigger. Good accurate plans but no idea where to start trying to find them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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