Question about "internal" colors for an early 190D

[Guest Vincent]

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Edited July 7, 2022 by Vincent

[Judyc]

Here's a picture of our compass that came out of a D-9 in late 1945. As you can see, it is RLM 02 and I've placed a piece of the inside of the fuselage that has RLM 02 paint from John Caler's old Bf 109 G-10/U4. It's of course slightly faded compared to the fresh paint on the compass but the color is the same.

 

To view the picture, visit our site at http://www.eagle-editions.com/mc.htm

 

It looks possibly like the compass that Vincent has shown is faded RLM 02. What other gray could it be?

 

Cheers,

Jerry

[BlackDog]

Greatly interesting, Jerry and Vincent, although I will not be able to tell the truth myself about the real color of those parts (and as I am not owning even one rivet of a 190, it does not help )...

 

Now it is the first time I see a good picture of this compass... Now I know that the one I scratch-built inside my Dora is not very accurate Next one will be better

[Guest brads1]

LSP Tony/Chris (and all the others),

 

Thank you all very much for assisting me. As you know, I am new to Luftwaffe colours, so getting to know roughly what the factory fresh colour looked like is an absolute must to start from. I can weather it and adjust it later, but not unless I know what it should look like in the first place!

 

Many thanks

 

Derek Bradshaw

[Guest Vincent]

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Edited July 7, 2022 by Vincent

[Guest Vincent]

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Edited July 7, 2022 by Vincent

[Tony O]

Jerry,Judy,Vincent, all...

Rather than use the subjective term'argument' I think its more proper to suggest debate.

It might be worth bearing in mind that there are probably no directives extant for the finish of equipment such as directional navigation devices and communication equipment.

I have a large and rather boring collection of images of FuG (FunkGerat, radio equipment, which confusingly also covers radar transmitting/recieving devices) all of which display varying finishes from black to indeterminate greys. All items that are internally mounted and not operated by crew appear to be of a mid grey colour and certainly do not exhibit

Equipment which appears to be visible however usually conforms to the standardised cockpit colour requirements (02 / 66) so items such as repeater compasses, radio equipment and radar compass.

I must admit that the images I have of the PATIN PFK 3b 'mutterkompass' do reinforce Vincent's image. Further to this I've images of a FuG 218 Naxos dielectric transmitting aerial which is finished in a very similar colour Wermacht radio equiment which has similar colour properties.

My opinion is that the parent companies such as Telefunken, GEMA/Brinkler, FFO, Siemens and PATIN would have their own finishing techniques.

It is interesting to note that some of these finishes appear to be very glossy indicating perhaps a laquered heat process finish to protect components.

It is possible that Jerry's example was produced by a subcontractor to PATIN who had stocks of 02 but this can easily be verified by the makers plate which should have a BAuart and Hersteller marking (located on the central gimbal housing.

I can also say that the PATIN I saw from the 109G2 Black 6 at Duxford whilst it was undergoing dismantling following its accident was definitely a glossy mid grey colour and not the green/grey tone of 02. (As an aside the Me163 was in the same shed and many of its internal components were unpainted)

attached is an alternate image of a PATIN PFK-m 3a (from a 109) showing a distinctly gloss mid grey original finish.

I doubt very much, although I stand to be corrected, that individual aircraft types would have different finishes for this particular equiment.

 

My opinion stressed earlier in a posting to Derek, is that when taken out of context the exact colour match for components such as internal items shouldn't be such a big deal and as proved here , who can rightly say that any one colour / item removed from a single airframe constitutes absolute proof that every other single item produced conformed to this finish?

 

We are talking Luftwaffe here, a war that ended nearly 60 years ago and information from a fragmented regime which destroyed a great deal of its documentation at the wars end...

 

Derek can you use the tins of 02? let me know.

[Guest Vincent]

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Edited July 7, 2022 by Vincent

[Judyc]

Hi all;

 

I need to make one more comment about these colors and then I'll shut up about it, but you must know that another Dora 9 recovered in recent months also had an RLM 02 master compass.

 

This gray color that appears on some master compasses and also other a/c components is distantly related to RLM 02. This was related to me by Warnecke and Bohm during one of our visits. Unfortunately like Tony says, most of the documentation is missing so it is not clear if this color was a new color or use of an existing color but it is fairly common on late war a/c components.

 

Cheers,

Jerry

[Tony O]

Jerry/Vincent,

its interesting stuff, although isn't it all getting a bit close to 'friendly' rivalry!!

You may (or may not!) know that I ran a Nighfighter SIG some years ago loosely connected to IPMS..anyway a former member who has sadly recently passed away had images of two PFK 3's.

He lived near Leeuwarden and the compasses were reputedly recovered from Bf110G-4c's.

One was in a bad state with surface corrosion, the other is the image I posted earlier. The finish of both is the mid 'bluey' grey seen here.

My theory is that the item that is in Jerry's possession was possibly repainted by a subcontractor who had the job of sub assy component construction, its feasable that the item is part of a smaller fuselage assy ( much like the mounting plate in Vince's 109 image). I'm not saying that it has been subsequently repainted but rather it was inadvertently/ purposefully refinished during airframe construction, its possible?

Jerry, the image on your site sems to be quite low res but does indicate on my LCD monitor that there appears to be two distinct colours there, perhaps if you could supply a higher resolution image we could look closely at the finish? just a thought.

 

Further to the colour, I'm not convinced this is part of the 02 'family' being 'my' examples being blue rather than green and to add to this I've historical data which indicates PATIN also designed and built directional electronic equipment for the Wurzburg Reise radar installations. (they also did Kriegsmarine stuff too which might also be a lead on the colour).

My late friend had a large amount of (admittedly esoteric) info and images of this equipment installed in control bunkers around the Leeuwarden area and whilst many images are monotone they do seem to correlate with the PFK tone of grey (when this image is 'decolourised' in photoshop, although it asguable that it is easy to alter tonal contrast using this software and its great for producing true B+W prints from colour images).

 

I have lost contact with his family but I was hoping to be able to 'inherit' some of his library of nightfighter related images and I'd be more than happy to publish these at a later date, if it clears things up.

 

What's apparent is our shared deep interest in all things Luftwaffe and just how much knowledge and information there is, can be shared and discussed.

Hopefully there aren't too many confused Dora modellers out there who are now seeking psychiatric councelling to decide which colour to paint their PFK

cheers

Tony

[t.valdez]

I'm reminded of the Jonathan Swift story of the characters who went to war arguing over which way an egg would tip if placed on the point where the two slopes of the roof meet.

The thought that there is one definitive answer to anything related to colour, fitment, finish of any aircraft short of a point in time photo walk-around is kind of hopeless. For virtually all aircraft for almost all periods of time, there is no one real standard. Especially for aircraft which served as rigorously as they do in wartime. Repairs, replacement, wartime rigors, weather, field rigging, bubble-gum and bailing-wire fixups render such discussions relative at best.

I'm reminded of the different suppliers of weaponry for US aircraft during the war and they are myriad. The Browning .50 cal was license built by a number of manufacturers and finished differently by each. Singer sewing machines made weapons as did Browning, and Remington and many others, as well as a couple of pipe companies and stamping companies. They are all the same, but they are all different if you look at them closely. And I think the same is true of all the sub-contractors in wartime Germany who would provide materials to spec. for the aircraft industry. Just imagine all the little mom and pop watchmakers scattered througout the Black Forest hacking away at little brass gears to make gimbals and drives for compases and then assembling them in a variety of factories that haven't been bombed yet. Maybe some get painted today, maybe not. Maybe they even get painted the color the RLM asked for. The exigencies of war make the rules go out the window.

[Tony O]

Wumm,

well at least someone's happy!!

 

T.Valdez,

you are perfectly right, but its the old teutonic hangup that exists mainly because everyone expects that the RLM were so thorough that the very thought of painting something the 'wrong' colour is anathema...and as so many people have been chasing the Luftwaffe colour subject for so long, it now doesn't occur to most that there are plenty of variables not least the one that someone could actually get the colour mix wrong in the factory (20.000 litres of 02 thats blue instead of green..are they going to throw it out?)...never mind the host of other variables that you have already mentioned.

 

You do have very valid points, but in this instance the items in question have not been subjected to service conditions where many of the variables that external finishes might encounter. Granted we cannot be certain that post war storage hasn't played some part in deterioration of the finish, but from image evidence its apparent that the examples show no signs of distress or undue wear and tear other than natural ageing.

I don't think its hopeless or pointless either, it illustrates just how far people are prepared to go to research their subject and the wealth of knowledge that is available to us.

Jerry and Vincent to name but a couple, have a wealth of resources that more often than not provide detailed and concise information to folks like you and me.

I think what it does say is that just because the original item was stated by Jerry Crandall as being finished in 02, doesn't qualify that item as being definitive based on peoples assumtions that Mr Crandall is a respected Artist and Luftwaffe authority (ergo it must be so).

Likewise Vincent's example also has no claim to be the definitive article based on many other peoples assumtion that because Mr Kermorgant is a respected master pattern maker/modeller and researcher, his word is also the last.

People should challenge these assumptions instead of accepting that what has gone before is the gospel. To illustrate the point further I recently posted an illustration depicting 500645 'black 6' in an alternative scheme which deviates from the version published in the Eagle Editions decal sheet #58(I think). Jerry didn't jump all over my artwork or denounce it as speculation, which he had every right to do as a personal opinion, but it does show that there are variables which are perfectly feasable and shouldn't be discounted.

http://www.largescaleplanes.com/articles/S...gs/Drawings.htm supporting the modelling article here:

http://www.largescaleplanes.com/articles/W...r/Dora/Dora.htm

It all adds up to make the subject so fascinating.

 

"vee shall haff zee peeeffkayz painted in ze correct farb or elz your grandmutter und her pet cat stumpi vill be made to do ze Kabaret show mit ze bratwurst again unt again unt again, hein?"

( no offence intended to our german readers )

 

remember if its not fun its not worth it

Tony

[Guest Vincent]

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Edited July 7, 2022 by Vincent