Derek B Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 I'm quite thrilled when you mention the "EF-4C" wearing the nasty diamond-shaped antennae! However, I'd like to know if anyone (including Tony) has any information related to the rear IP modifications. I've discussed this with Jake Melampy when he was gathering info for his Phantom book and even discussed with a crew chief who worked on such birds when they came back from Vietnam and were redeployed in Kadena, Spangdhalem and finally CONUS. In spite of ten years of research, I've never seen one picture or TM view showing the rear IP differences! The problem lies in the fact that the Wild Weasel internal systems were removed after the Vietnam war. After the modifications, there was a empty space/bracket at the 1 or 2 o'clock position on the WSO's IP. I got no other information. Moreover, I know one TM view of the "EF-4D" prototype rear pit IP but this does not comply with info I got from the crew chief... If I'm remembering facts correctly, such modified F-4C used the ALQ-87 and later the ALQ-119. BTW, one set of 1/32 decal was released a long time ago by Microscale for "Rub-a-dub-dub" with two F-4E schemes. Alas, I have the same problem with other oddballs such as the RF-4C LORAN rear pit modifications or the specially modified F-4D LGB launchers with a 5-inch Sony TV fitted to the forward end of of the WSO's right-hand console... Regarding the G, AFAIK, there were not a lot of visible differences between early birds and late ones. As previously mentioned, Shrike or Harm and even Standard missiles are not difficult to find. We still need a good deep ALQ-131 but there are some options that may be improved on the market. BTW, there is no difference between the Tamiya E and EJ kits regarding the stabs! They're slotted in both kits as it is a normal feature of such marks! Thierry Thanks Thierry - man, you know a lot about Phantoms! The F/EF-4C sounds more and more interesting the more I learn about it - that alone is enough to do it?. As for F-4G specific pods and armament, I am happy to hear peoples views on this one, as I feel that the 'jury' is still very much oput on this subject. If existing kit and AM options are found to be wanting, inadequate or not available, I will consider looking at them, but I need to know if this is really what modellers need? Cheers Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony T Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I'm quite thrilled when you mention the "EF-4C" wearing the nasty diamond-shaped antennae! However, I'd like to know if anyone (including Tony) has any information related to the rear IP modifications. I've discussed this with Jake Melampy when he was gathering info for his Phantom book and even discussed with a crew chief who worked on such birds when they came back from Vietnam and were redeployed in Kadena, Spangdhalem and finally CONUS. In spite of ten years of research, I've never seen one picture or TM view showing the rear IP differences! The problem lies in the fact that the Wild Weasel internal systems were removed after the Vietnam war. After the modifications, there was a empty space/bracket at the 1 or 2 o'clock position on the WSO's IP. I got no other information. Moreover, I know one TM view of the "EF-4D" prototype rear pit IP but this does not comply with info I got from the crew chief... ... Thierry I've burned a CD for Derek which includes a diagram and photo of the F-4C Weasel rear IP. They're not mine to post and were sent for reference purposes only. The internal systems were gutted only just prior to the aircraft being reallocated to two squadrons of the Indiana ANG, but the empty rear IP brackets and most external lumps, bumps and the Sparrow fairing remained - just the diamond-shaped antennae went AFAIK, and I had (can longer locate) a shot of an Indiana Guard F-4C Weasel with them still in place (and small shark's mouth behind the radome), taken around 1979. tony t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thierry laurent Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I've burned a CD for Derek which includes a diagram and photo of the F-4C Weasel rear IP. tony t OMG! I cannot believe it! May I contact you out of the board? I'm only interested in the IP info. I knew that the external mods stayed. In fact, there are various pics showing the birds with the diamond-shape antennae later (as in Kadena in 1976/77). However, indeed, all the pics I've (timeframe 1981-1987) when they were used by the Indiana ANG showed the airframes without such antennae. Thierry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thierry laurent Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Thanks Thierry - man, you know a lot about Phantoms! The F/EF-4C sounds more and more interesting the more I learn about it - that alone is enough to do it?. As for F-4G specific pods and armament, I am happy to hear peoples views on this one, as I feel that the 'jury' is still very much oput on this subject. If existing kit and AM options are found to be wanting, inadequate or not available, I will consider looking at them, but I need to know if this is really what modellers need? Cheers Derek As you see Derek, in spite of my long interest in this bird and quite large library (I've more than 100 books plus some hundreds of Megabytes dedicated to the Rhino), it is always possible to get new interesting info from knowledgeable people ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony T Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 OMG! I cannot believe it! May I contact you out of the board? I'm only interested in the IP info. I knew that the external mods stayed. In fact, there are various pics showing the birds with the diamond-shape antennae later (as in Kadena in 1976/77). However, indeed, all the pics I've (timeframe 1981-1987) when they were used by the Indiana ANG showed the airframes without such antennae. Thierry Hi Thierry, I don't want to knock the wind out of Derek's sails, as I dearly want to see this set made! The diagram was published in the third edition of The Phantom Story back in the 1990s - the one with the black spine and banking 56 Sqn FGR.2 on the cover, and the photo appeared in Larry Davis' Wild Weasel squadron signal book, from the 1980s. You may have those in your library, or know somebody who has. tony t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek B Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 As you see Derek, in spite of my long interest in this bird and quite large library (I've more than 100 books plus some hundreds of Megabytes dedicated to the Rhino), it is always possible to get new interesting info from knowledgeable people ;-) ..Which is why I am very grateful to the likes of you, Carl, Tony and many others who are helping me both previously, and now - Thank you guys Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thierry laurent Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Hi Thierry, I don't want to knock the wind out of Derek's sails, as I dearly want to see this set made! The diagram was published in the third edition of The Phantom Story back in the 1990s - the one with the black spine and banking 56 Sqn FGR.2 on the cover, and the photo appeared in Larry Davis' Wild Weasel squadron signal book, from the 1980s. You may have those in your library, or know somebody who has. tony t So do I Tony! I won't dedicate time to scratchbuild something I may purchase, more particularly if quality is guaranteed. I'm just interested in the pictures as I'm looking for this info for ages. I've your book (to be frank, this is probably my favourite after "Spirit in the skies") but I think it is another (older?) edition: one with a very close picture of a FGR. I've as well Larry Davis book but possibly not the latest edition. Mine has a F-105G on the cover. There was possibly another one with a F-4G on the cover. Am I right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek B Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Well, I am almost 100% sure that I will cover the F-4C Weasel conversion for two reasons. The first is that I never new about this variant until Tony brought it up (which very much surprises me). The second is that it sounds like a really funky little ('Little' being a relative term here when we are talking Phantoms of course ) aircraft in all those jazzy colour schemes (even though I have not yet seen a single photograph of one!). Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thierry laurent Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Well, I am almost 100% sure that I will cover the F-4C Weasel conversion for two reasons. The first is that I never new about this variant until Tony brought it up (which very much surprises me). The second is that it sounds like a really funky little ('Little' being a relative term here when we are talking Phantoms of course ) aircraft in all those jazzy colour schemes (even though I have not yet seen a single photograph of one!). Derek Good news!!! Here's a view of some of the most famous schemes (Vietnam war ones): http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Rev2/1101-1200/Rev1187-TwoBobs48114/00.shtm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony T Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Well, I am almost 100% sure that I will cover the F-4C Weasel conversion for two reasons. The first is that I never new about this variant until Tony brought it up (which very much surprises me). The second is that it sounds like a really funky little ('Little' being a relative term here when we are talking Phantoms of course ) aircraft in all those jazzy colour schemes (even though I have not yet seen a single photograph of one!). Derek Derek, If you master the small 'diamond' antennae, and 'shoes' on the lower ones, that were fitted around the nose barrel as a separate 'mini set' I'm sure you'll have plenty of takers as many 'vanilla' F-4Ds had these fitted between 1969 and 1973, as part of their original APS-107 RHAWS gear for combat duty. I includesd a head-on shot of an F-4D with these fitted on the CD I've mailed to you (identical to those used on the F-4C Weasels in terms of external engineering) as encouragement/reference. Pretty much anyone wanting to do a Udorn or Ubon F-4D from that era will need these for their F-4D too, if they want accuracy in 1/32. tony t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek B Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Derek, If you master the small 'diamond' antennae, and 'shoes' on the lower ones, that were fitted around the nose barrel as a separate 'mini set' I'm sure you'll have plenty of takers as many 'vanilla' F-4Ds had these fitted between 1969 and 1973, as part of their original APS-107 RHAWS gear for combat duty. I includesd a head-on shot of an F-4D with these fitted on the CD I've mailed to you (identical to those used on the F-4C Weasels in terms of external engineering) as encouragement/reference. Pretty much anyone wanting to do a Udorn or Ubon F-4D from that era will need these for their F-4D too, if they want accuracy in 1/32. tony t Good idea Tony Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek B Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Good news!!! Here's a view of some of the most famous schemes (Vietnam war ones): http://www.aircraftr...bs48114/00.shtm Thanks for the link Thierry...might give Eli a knock?... Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Brown Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Hi all, I have a few thoughts on the conversions that I'd like to throw in. Feel free to throw them back out! First, sign me up for a set of APS-107 antennae! For an F-4G conversion for the Tamiya F-4E kit, I think Cutting Edge had the right idea with most of the parts in their set. You could do the entire conversion plug & play, so the modeler doesn't have to cut anything. The G cockpit parts could be made to just replace the kit parts, as necessary. Same with the antenna fairings for the nose & tail. The rest of the antennae and the actuator fairings for the inboard slats just scab onto the fuselage. CE had the right idea in completely replacing the outer wing panels, since this would be easier than grafting on new leading edges and wing tips to the kit parts, then rescribing the whole thing. CE just screwed up the execution of these parts, so they didn't fit, and the shapes of the outboard slats and wing fences weren't quite right. They also had to make things unnecessarily complicated by having the slats extended. Replacing the entire outer wing panel would also allow you to correct the angle of the Tamiya kit's parts. I think all of the F-4Gs had the reinforcement straps on the belly. One of the more knowledgeable folks here can confirm. You could hook up with Nautilus Models for some of their vinyl straps for his bit. If you make the slat parts for the F-4G as above, you'd then have an easy conversion set for a slatted F-4E, too. I'd suggest including other common F-4E upgrades, such as the ARN-101 antenna and associated cockpit mods, TISEO, and whatever other antenna updates they made for slatted jets. I'd make the TISEO similar in design to the one in the 1/48 Hasegawa F-4E, so it just slides onto the wing, rather than having the modeler cut a big notch in the wing, like CE had you do. That way, an F-4E upgrade set would be plug & play, too. This is beyond the scope of this thread, but once you have the outer wing panels made for slats, you could also make a quick and easy F-4S conversion for the Tamiya F-4J by including Navy-style outer slats, longer wing fences, and a lip to go along the underside of the inboard part of the wings' leading edge to represent the S's different inboard slat. The Nautilus wing straps would also be required, but I don't think there would be any mods required for the cockpit. Guys, feel free to correct me on this one. I'll be happy to provide F-4S walk around photos if you're interested. For the Revell kit, I'd suggest keeping the fixes for the nose, intakes, etc. separate from the actual F-4G conversion. Many modelers are OK with the Revell kit's issues and would just want the basic parts to convert it to a G. My own thoughts would be that if I want an accurate long-nose F-4, I'd just spend the extra $$$ for a Tamiya kit instead of a lot of time, effort, and $$$ to get the Revell kit up to speed. I'm looking forward to what you come up with for the Tamiys kits! Cheers! Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Brown Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Forgot to mention, here is Bill Spidle's walk around of a Wild Weasel F-4C: http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/bill_spidle4/f-4c_ww_64-0791/ Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thierry laurent Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Hi Ben, We've not discussed Rhinos for a while! Indeed, you're right, as all F-4G WW were initially E models built in 1969, they had the belly reinforcement strap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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