simmo Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Im building another Phantom but this time a Navy bird. I think I read somewhere that only 2 sparrows where fitted to the rear wells as a norm due to stress on nose leg at launch. Is this true and are there any pics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Williams Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 I don't know about the stress part, but two Sparrows in the rear wells was pretty common during Vietnam. I though the reason was more so for weight and that the Sparrows were not that reliable and usable due to visual identification restrictions. They seemed to carry a full load of Sidewinders, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 Your question got me to looking. Lots of photos of USN Phantoms during Vietnam with only two AIM-7s loaded in aft launchers. Most all were also loaded with other types of air to ground ordnance. Most Phantoms that were loaded for BARCAP or CAP carrying only air to air have 4 AIM-7s loaded. I also noted that most USMC Phantoms that were flying a mission profile that might result in an air to air engagement carried 4 AIM-7s. These were however land based Phantoms. I could not find an explanation anywhere and surmise it could be a weight to fuel consumption or possibly purely a weight issue for the cat launch. Good question though; maybe another of our Phantom Phanatics have some intel. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmo Posted November 6, 2011 Author Share Posted November 6, 2011 (edited) Hi, thanks for the replys. Found many pics of Marine Phantoms with 2 sparrows fitted, both front and rear!! all pics of navy phantoms i have found so far show no sparrow or all 4. Like i said in my first post im sure i read that only rear sparrows where fitted a lot of the time but havent been able to find any pics of this. Think im being lazy and only want to build 2 sparrows!! lol Edited November 6, 2011 by simmo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek B Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 Hi Simmo, Like you, I also have done a little image searching. As you say, operationally, most RN F-4K/FG.1 aircraft generally carried no sparrows. However, when they were fitted, they could be in pairs in either the forward or aft stations! (there is a possibility that this was dependent upon other stores configurations, such as number and types of fuel tanks installed, AIM 9 sidewinder fit, etc?). When I worked on RAF F-4M/FGR.2 aircraft, I seem to recall that they often had two blue inert rounds installed on the forward stations only - I believe for CoG reasons. HTH Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony T Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) Read somewhere that the c/l tank needs punching off before the rear Sparrows could be fired, otherwise they'd hit it during the launch sequence. Navy F-4B/Js relied more on the AIM-9D/G, so maybe the Sparrows were there just for insurance purposes? tony t Edited November 7, 2011 by Tony T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmo Posted November 8, 2011 Author Share Posted November 8, 2011 Finaly found some pics of USN f4 with only 2 sparrows in rear bays!!! they also seem to be only carry two sidewinders. Tony, read that too about tank. Thanks for all the replys can now move on with build. I may evan put up a pic this time!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 From the Pro-Modeler F-4E manual they mention that if a center line fuel tank is installed do not use front sparrow. So im guessing this was pretty universal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 C/L Tank has to be jettisoned before missiles can be fired or jettisoned from fuselage stations 4 and 6 (forward AIM-7 launchers). There is a "Tank Aboard" relay that inhibits these actions until tank is jettisoned. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericg Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 G'day Simmo, When researching my build of showtime 100 I came up with this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F-4J_VF-96_Showtime_100_armed_from_below.jpg It shows 2 sparrows on the rear stations, none on the front. There are pics with the aircraft carrying rockeyes on the inner pylons and I did read somewhere that it was due C of G problems that there were none carried on the forward stations. I did however put all 4 on mine as I thought it looked better! Eric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 (edited) There are no limitations in the 1F-4C-1 or the 1F-4E-1...Flight Manuals that restrict the operation of the aircraft with AIM-7s loaded all 4 fuselage stations and having the C/L Tank loaded. The restriction does exist are mentioned before that launching or jettisoning of missiles in the two forward positions in inhibited with the C/L Tank in position. If you wanted to maintain the C/L tank for the range given by it’s additional 600 gals then you would not want to load the forward positions. Here are a couple of photos showing Sparrows in the forward positions with the C/L loaded. Edited November 8, 2011 by Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony T Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 So Barry, what you're saying is that with all four x AIM-7 and the c/l tank on the jet the inhibitor would skip the front Sparrows and the rear ones would be launched instead (assuming a double missile ripple-fire). The crew could then fire the forward AIM-7s once they'd punched off the tank? I've heard of rear Sparrows putting a 1-1.5 inch dent or groove in the c/l tank, but I guess that's anything but an optimum, 1g (gravity) wings-level rear Sparrow volley? tony t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 So Barry, what you're saying is that with all four x AIM-7 and the c/l tank on the jet the inhibitor would skip the front Sparrows and the rear ones would be launched instead (assuming a double missile ripple-fire). The crew could then fire the forward AIM-7s once they'd punched off the tank? I've heard of rear Sparrows putting a 1-1.5 inch dent or groove in the c/l tank, but I guess that's anything but an optimum, 1g (gravity) wings-level rear Sparrow volley? tony t Reading the USAF -1 Flight Manual there is no restriction noted on the aft launchers. The C/L tank inhibit affects only for the forward launchers stations 4 and 6 per the -1 loading table. I do not know if the inhibit function would automatically skip stations 4 and 6 and select 3 or 7; though it might. I'll send this question to a couple of former USAF F-4 Drivers. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 (edited) Questions posed to former Phantom Driver. Was there any specific loading or C/G issue with a full load out of Sparrows and External Tanks? USAF -1 notes that with the C/L Tank loaded stations 4 and 6 are inhibited through the "Tank Aboard" relay. If a full compliment of Sparrows were loaded with the C/L Tank would system automatically skip over stations 4 and 6 if one of them was selected? Could the Sparrows be "volley" or ripple fired? If so would the system skip stations 4 and 6? First response: "Hi Barry, OK, here's the scoop, the limiting factor on pulling Gs with the Centerline tank was while feeding, was about 3-3.5. Once fed out it was aircraft limits which started out about 6 and worked to 6.5 as you burned gas down. By time you reached 6.5 it was time to go home, you need to land pretty soon. As for missiles, I need to go find my old -34, but missile G limits were aircraft limits, as for the front missiles needed to dump the centerline tank to fire them, the old tanks from VM you'd hit the tank because it was so fat. The High speed centerlines were fine, didn't need to jettison, however, they never changed the wiring in the F-4 to accommodate that. You could pull the circuit breaker to override the inhibitor but that wasn't standard practice--only learned that when I went to Weapons School. Finally normal firing sequence was rear first, then front, there was no ripple, you had to have Master Arm-arm, Aim-7 selected, good radar lock and above 200 knots to let one of those babies fly! Squeeze the trigger..........and off she comes, first thing is clunk, then a micro second later a huge white plume out in front of you and the missile accelerates to Mack 3 going after her target. Hope that helps out, I need to go find my old -1 and -34 and look some of this stuff up. Take care, Joe" Barry Edited November 11, 2011 by Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmo Posted November 11, 2011 Author Share Posted November 11, 2011 Thanks for all the replys although I feel I have opened a can of worms LOL. work is underway on my F 4!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now