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ladder4boy

f-4C Cheetah 03

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Hey guys, I did what Jerry is doing on the raised panels. I have most of the lower tail section done as well. There are a lot of conflicting pics out there. I ended up getting rid of all the raised sections on the tail and filling some of the rivets and enlarging others. Which vent is wrong???

 

440b9945.jpg

 

bb675fad.jpg

 

I am looking forward to seeing your interpretation of the cockpit Jerry.

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Matt.. the louvered vent right above the burner cans is off. I know a lot of people choose not to fix this because it's tricky with all the curves and getting the vent shape right. I'll take a pic when i get a chance. As far as the tail section goes, i thing what you've done is more correct. From the pictures i've seen, those straps were flush, or at worst, one sheet of metal thick.. so the Tamiya ones are grossly oversized. I plan on pretty much doing what you've done.. scribe around them and sand them off. Some of those pics have some cool color contrasts on the heated metal tho.. with those straps looking almost polished.. could lead so some interesting paint work! Haven't had a chance to get any progress pics today as i've been stuck at the doctors office, but i'll try to get some this evening or tomorrow morning at the latest.

 

Harvey, i just lightly scribed around all of them.. figured paint would hide most of them and if they're not supposed to be there, they'll be a whole lot less obvious! I did remove the stiffening plates off the stabilators tho.. as i know my airframe hadn't had them installed yet. Think it's correct for later model C's and up tho.

 

Jerry

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slow progress continues.. no pictures as of yet because all i've been doing is test-fitting and re-test-fitting and trying to figure out my game plan here. did get the resin exhausts cleaned up and ready to install.. going to paint the blast tubes and install them, then put the thing together and fill/sand/rescribe the tail before putting the nozzles on (will probably do that last thing after everything else is painted).

 

Had a couple of questions if anyone is watching tho.

#1.. on the resin exhausts i'm using, there is a perforated metal cover inside the exhausts.. pic should show it..

DSCN3485.jpg

 

i've seen pictures of these as well as regular corrugated metal inside. Is this some kind of protective cover? is it metal?? i've seen some pictures where it had a greenish hue to it, like it may have been an asbestos material.. Don't know if it's a later add-on that's not relative to my plane, but i'm using it so shhhhh! Just wanted to know what it is!

 

#2 I've read that the camo paint would continue inside the intakes to a distance of about 3 ft., but i've seen several pictures where it didn't.. what's the verdict here? was thinking about taking it back to the hinge on the splitter. Also, what's the color of the intake beyond that? is it white, or light gray?

 

#3. I've also read that the planes were delivered in the factory grey and camo was field applied over it.. hence the severe weathering and paint chipping. My plan is to paint the thing grey first, then super thin coats of SEA camo over that, but was wondering what the factory grey color was..

 

D. what's the base cockpit tub color? I've got a pretty good handle on all the stuff in there, but was looking for a base color to start with.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated! Pics and game plan soon Harvey.. still kind of figuring it out here! Also, got the wheels in the mail yesterday.. Mucho MUCHO gracias there my friend!

 

Cheers

Jerry

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Had a couple of questions if anyone is watching tho.

#1.. on the resin exhausts i'm using, there is a perforated metal cover inside the exhausts.. pic should show it..

 

i've seen pictures of these as well as regular corrugated metal inside. Is this some kind of protective cover? is it metal?? i've seen some pictures where it had a greenish hue to it, like it may have been an asbestos material.. Don't know if it's a later add-on that's not relative to my plane, but i'm using it so shhhhh! Just wanted to know what it is!

 

It is a metal "liner"; it is perforated to allow air (oxygen) into the burner and common to all J-79's used in the Phantom. I'm not sure of it's metalic composition but it did have a greenish hue when fairly clean.

 

#2 I've read that the camo paint would continue inside the intakes to a distance of about 3 ft., but i've seen several pictures where it didn't.. what's the verdict here? was thinking about taking it back to the hinge on the splitter. Also, what's the color of the intake beyond that? is it white, or light gray?

 

During the Phantom's early life the Camo did not extend very far into the intake it may have in later days.

Usually they masked using the intake lip over to the Vari Ramp center hinge point which is common to the point at when the intake lip intersects the ramp. The interior of the intake was white but usually a dirty white/grey to white/brownish color. The intakes were crawled into on every preflight and post fight inspection. Lots of black boot marks inside them.

 

#3. I've also read that the planes were delivered in the factory grey and camo was field applied over it.. hence the severe weathering and paint chipping. My plan is to paint the thing grey first, then super thin coats of SEA camo over that, but was wondering what the factory grey color was..

 

Early Air Force Phantoms were delivered in the standard Navy Grey over White. I'm not sure what the FS number is or if it different form that the Navy used. I have seen photos where the Camo was applied over the upper gray surfaces but the lower surfaces where not painted in USAF Lt. Grey but left white. There was a great article in Fine Scale Modeler several years back covering that approach to the applying the camo over the grey; looked great!

 

D. what's the base cockpit tub color? I've got a pretty good handle on all the stuff in there, but was looking for a base color to start with.

 

Cockpit was painted "cockpit gray" same as the Navy Phantoms but there were different greys referred to as cockpit grey. Unlike exterior surfaces that were touched up as needed the cockpit seldom received any paint touch up.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated! Pics and game plan soon Harvey.. still kind of figuring it out here! Also, got the wheels in the mail yesterday.. Mucho MUCHO gracias there my friend!

 

Cheers

Jerry

 

Hope this is helpful ;)

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extremely helpful Barry! Now i can at least start painting my burner cans. cut the splitter's in half so i can paint behind them and then add the front half afterwards.. worked out pretty nicely. cut it at the hinge point of the vari-ramp and inserted some evergreen on the inside for locater pins. I'll post pics shortly. Basically, i'm stalling as long as possible on scratch building this cockpit.. i'm skeered! :frantic: not scared of cutting up the pit.. scared i might be taking on a 3 month project within a 6 month project if ya catch what i'm sayin! i tend to get a case of OCD AMS.. which is probably why i haven't finished a LSP in 4 years! Does anybody make good PE bezels for jets like Radu does for prop planes? Got the Grant decals on order.. just don't feel like making my own bezels.. On Vicodin for my neck pain and it tends to affect my fine motor skills.. (does make dreadful chores like sanding down intake filler much more entertaining tho!)

 

Thanks again Barry!

 

Cheers,

Jerry

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Jerry,

 

As far as the intake camo goes, the 3 ft thing is for later Phantoms, figure E and later, or so.

 

The C's were originally grey over white, with white intakes that went all the way up to the metal material on the lip (coroguard, or something like that). The a/c we're doing were re-painted in camo in theater at the depo complete with high humidity, which is why they weathered out as quickly as they did and you see a lot with lots of paint chipping and some with outright peeling. Depending on the person masking, the camo extended various depths, but most photos show it going in a few inches or less. On mine, I painted the camo in about 2mm or so, and just past the vari ramp hinge.

 

As far as the cockpit color, I can't remember where I found it on the internet, but there was an FS number accepted for the cockpit grey of the Phantoms. I used MM dark gull grey for my starting point. This seems to match well to the color photos in the Modern Phantom Guide.

 

I'm not sure about a/c not getting their undersides painted and being left gloss white. Photos of 680, the a/c I'm doing, show it to be in grey, and that would have been 36622 light grey. I'd assume your a/c was painted in the same depot and wouldn't differ much.

 

Research is half the fun and go with what you best think the photos show.

 

Chris

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I think the cockpit gray color was close to this FS595 # 36231. I will be curious as to what you use for green inside the exhaust liner, I have been wrestling with that one myself.

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Here are some photos of "hot section" of aft fusleage, nozzle and those pesky louvers.

P7300005.jpg

P7300029.jpg

P7300006.jpg

P7300004.jpg

P7300007.jpg

 

I believe Bruce Radebaugh here has the louvers for sale.

 

Here is the photo that made me think that the lower surfaces might not have been painted grey at least on those aircraft that were already in country when camo was applied.

 

scan0041A.jpg

 

Here is a nice photo of "as delivered" scheme though it's black & white.

 

scan0004.jpg

 

Matt here is the best photo I've seen showing that the AN/APR-25 antenna was not installed at least on this aircraft during the time; photo claims 1966 time period.

 

scan0007.jpg

 

Cheers

Edited by Barry

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I think the cockpit gray color was close to this FS595 # 36231. I will be curious as to what you use for green inside the exhaust liner, I have been wrestling with that one myself.

 

 

FS 36231 is equivilent to MM Dark Gull Grey....knew I saw it somewhere.

 

BTW, the underside grey, 36622 is very light and in photos, it would be hard to distinguish it from white without something white next to it. It is considerably lighter than the original scheme's topside grey, which was 36440.

 

C

Edited by csavaglio

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Chris, Barry, and Matt.. thanks! Saved me a ton of time looking stuff up on the net here.. and gave me time to work on this splitter plate idea.

 

Harvey... there's a pinned thread at the top of this GB supposedly for reference photo's.. maybe Sunday if i get some time I'll post what I've found in there. What's the deal with posting images you've found on the web as far as copyright stuff goes? would it just be better to post a link to the site? don't wanna be a law breaker or nothing!

 

Hacked the splitter plates in half.. figured i could mount the back half to the intake to help get rid of the bad fit in the intake, plus it would be easier to paint the area behind it, then install the front half. Was easier than i thought actually.

 

First, built the plates up as per instruction, then after they dried good, hacked 'em in half at the hinge line.. replaced the hinges with pieces of .2x.4 evergreen on the back half, then inserted evergreen strip into the front half of the splitter as locater pins. think the thick stuff is .6 x 2.0 evergreen and the top and bottom pieces are .6 x .4.. keeps them from sliding up and down...

 

back half with hinges remade...

DSCN35322.jpg

 

front half with strip installed..

DSCN35332.jpg

 

and how it looks put back together.. un-cut splitter on top, modified one on bottom..

DSCN35342.jpg

 

This DOES leave a seam on the back of the plate tho and i haven't figured out a way to make this disappear yet, but i think it will be less noticeable than a crappy paint job behind the plate.

 

I'll try to get more work done soon.. trying to work out a fix for the tail area, but modeling time has been short as of late.

 

Thanks for looking!

 

Jerry

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Jerry,

 

I like what you've done with the ramps the look is very realistic. :goodjob:

 

I'll dump my photos into the other thread.

 

Barry.

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Hey Barry, thanks for the pic of the lack of an an/apr-25 radar. Looks like I will need to find an early 1967 pic of 668. I wonder if Cheetah 03 had a RHAW system?

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Jerry,

 

It’s the bullet shaped fairing on the trailing edge of the vertical stabilizer cap.

I've found a several good clear photos; one of A/C 63-7683 photo states "Ubon 1967" and one of 64-699 again "Ubon 1967" neither aircraft have the antenna fairing in question. However in the photo of 64-699 there are two other a/c 432 and 647 and they both have the antenna fairing. The is another A/C 64-697 shown at Cam Ranh Bay with no specific date but A/C was lost on 26 Nov. 1967 it to does not have the antenna fairing in the photo.

 

Photos are in: USAF F-4 and F-105 MiG KILLERS of the Vietnam War, 1965-1973.

 

Also note worthy is that A/C 63-7683 and 64-699 both F-4C-21’s and another 64-697, F-4C-22 and none of them have the IR fairing under radome.

 

Keith Ferris’s painting of Col. Olds MiG kill during Operation Bolo shows F-4C-21-MC 63-7680 without the IR fairing on radome. There has always been a little controversy as to whether or not this aircraft had the IR faing at the time or not. It is a well published fact that C model coming down the production line at the same time as the first D model received the “new” Radome being used on the D model without the IR fairing. Ferris has answered to the question; “Robin told him that it was one of the newer C models without the fairing on Radome”.

 

This is one of the reasons I’ve not started building a model of A/C 680 as I would like to know with some certainty that it did or did not have the fairing at the time of Bolo.

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