Changeover from Sutton to Q harness?

[Kahunaminor]

Can anyone tell me the date when in WW II the British changed from the Sutton harness to the (mid to late war) Q type harness?

[Edgar Brooks]

They didn't, except (possibly) on the Tempest; there's mention, in its Pilot's Notes, of a "new" type of harness. I'm only researching, fully, the Spitfire, where references to the Sutton-style harness can be found, in the Inspection Schedules, right through until 1945 for various Marks, and there are photographs, in which you can see Suttons draped over cockpit sills on 1945-era XIVs. The parachute-style "QS" harness didn't come into Spitfire use until 1946; with three harnesses having Q in their titles, confusion is an ever-present, but the QK was just a version of the Sutton K, the QL had the box-type of fitting, but appears to have been superceded by the QS. This, in turn, was superceded by the (essentially similar) ZB harness in 1950.

Edgar

[Radub]

Can anyone tell me the date when in WW II the British changed from the Sutton harness to the (mid to late war) Q type harness?

 

I guess you mean the late-war type of harness with a parachute-type fastener. In as far as I recall, it was called "Sutton QS". It was generally introduced in 1945, after the war, but it did not happen sudenly across the board. Some got it earlier. In some of the four volumes of the book 2nd Tactical Force published by Classic Publications there are photos of various aircraft showing a tantalising glimpse of that type of harness during the war. For example, there are photos of Typhoons with that type of harness durig the war. The Typhoon cockpit in Duxford has a Sutton QS harness.

So, you are safe to use it on postwar aircraft. For wartime aircraft, the best thing to do is to look for photos.

HTH

Radu

[Kahunaminor]

Thanks Edgar and Radu,

 

So summing up the "Q type" harness, despite being described as a mid to late war modification, really didn't see general usage (in the Spitfire) until after the war, however there were a few a/c that may have had the modification. Obviously it will depend on the specific references available but it would be a safe bet to generally stick with a Sutton harness for a WWII Spitfire?

[Edgar Brooks]

I'd say so; the Spitfire was unique, with its plastic seat, which was always prone to cracking, especially at the sides. Even the introduction of the QK (which was just a variation of the Sutton K) was conditional on the seat, whether plastic or metal, being above a minimum thickness, with special emphasis on the side walls. The leaflet, introducing the box-fitting type QS harness is dated 1946, which seems an inordinate delay, if they'd been in use earlier. Typhoons, Tempests, etc., probably due to their metal seats, had fewer restrictions. I have found the Typhoon manual, which definitely illustrates a Sutton, sitting in Kew's archives, but not (yet) one for the Tempest. This seems to indicate that the Typhoon might have changed, during the war, but Lord knows when (or even if.)

Edgar

[Radub]

Thanks Edgar and Radu,

 

So summing up the "Q type" harness, despite being described as a mid to late war modification, really didn't see general usage (in the Spitfire) until after the war, however there were a few a/c that may have had the modification. Obviously it will depend on the specific references available but it would be a safe bet to generally stick with a Sutton harness for a WWII Spitfire?

 

As Edgar also pointed out, it is misleading to refer to the late-war type of harnss as "Suton Q". The full name was "Sutton QS". The Sutton harness with "eyelets and pin" was called "Sutton QK". So, all of them were some kind of "Sutton Q".

The wartime Spitfires were fitted with "Sutton QK" harnesses.

HTH

Radu

[Edgar Brooks]

Oh, how I wish it were that simple. The (apparently) first Spitfire harness was the type "M", as you can see from that illustration that I put onto the Spitfire IX thread. When the armour was added, there were complaints that tall pilots were being restricted by the the harness being shortened by having to go through the hole in the plate (N.B. not the backrest,) so the Y-strap was lengthened; I think that this was the K. All Suttons appear to have had single-letter designations (for example the Hurricane was F or L,) and the Spitfire's K became QK after yet another alteration to the Y strap, but it was very late, and might not have applied to many airframes; certainly there were no QK harnesses before the Mark VII.

Edgar

[Radub]

Yes indeed, it is a minefiled.

What I was saying was that "Sutton Q" may not be the correct designation for the type of seat harness with the parachute-type fastener. As you already mentioned, the letter "Q" ws used in different combinations with different letters to describe different types of harness.

Even calling them "late" and "early" may not always work. The best description may be to refer to the harness by the type of fastener.

Radu

[Derek B]

It is all very confusing, but both Edgar and Radu are, as far as I can tell, correct. During my time in the RAF I was a survival equipment fitter, and part of my trade was the packing of parachutes and servicing of all type of aircraft harness and fittings/fasteners. RAF aircraft harnesses are indeed identified primarily by the type of fastener that they have. Back in the mid-70s, when I started my training, most of the harness fittings were of the post-war design as described above. There were a number of differing harness fasteners, and they could be installed on a number of differing types of harness, hence the general two letter predesignations (examples of popular fitting types are 'Z', 'Q' and 'P'). Reference to survival equipment manuals and associated aircraft publications are the only real way of understanding exactly what type of harness/fastener/fittings combination was used on which aircraft type, and when. I hope that you find good quality photographs that clearly show exactly what type of harness/fitting are installed on your aircraft of choice.

 

Regards

 

Derek

[Kahunaminor]

Okay, I think I am getting the idea now. I think where the confusion lay and it is all my own lack of knowledge, is that I believed there were two different manufacturers of harness. The "Sutton Harness" (being the type with the large triangle and pin) and the "Q type" harness being the type with the central locking system. I was unaware there were the variants of the 'Q' model such QK, QS referring to the locking system etc. It is now apparent that they were all subtypes of harness manufactured by Sutton. Is that more correct? Sorry if I am a bit obtuse here. I think it also stems from manufactureres that give you a choice of 'Sutton' or 'Q - type' harnesses for their resin seats!!

 

Thanks again

[Edgar Brooks]

The harness was invented by Oliver Sutton, of the RFC (not sure of his rank,) during WWI, so it was named after him; it wasn't made by a Sutton company. Immediately post-war, it was forgotten, dropped, call it what you will, and wasn't resurrected until the 1930s. There were, probably, several companies making harnesses during the war, and they would have produced them to drawings supplied, almost certainly by the likes of Supermarine themselves (certainly there are drawings of all the Spitfire harnesses, apart from the M, in the RAF Museum's MAC archive.)

Edgar

[Kahunaminor]

The harness was invented by Oliver Sutton, of the RFC (not sure of his rank,) during WWI, so it was named after him; it wasn't made by a Sutton company. Immediately post-war, it was forgotten, dropped, call it what you will, and wasn't resurrected until the 1930s. There were, probably, several companies making harnesses during the war, and they would have produced them to drawings supplied, almost certainly by the likes of Supermarine themselves (certainly there are drawings of all the Spitfire harnesses, apart from the M, in the RAF Museum's MAC archive.)

Edgar

 

 

Thanks Edgar. I appreciate your time and patience.

 

Regards,