Trumpeter 1/32 AV-8B Harrier review - The beginning

[Dave Roof]

1. After seeing Dave's excellent presentation

 

2. If Tamiya can bring a kit like the new 1/32 Spitfire that is light years ahead in quality, scale fidelity, detail and engineering for $120 why can't Trumpeter? And they can get it right the first time without having to go back and re-tool or rework......

 

I hope that Trumpeter will stop and take the time to re-evaluate these future releases...especially the A-6. It does seem as if they are listening. It would be a shame for them to hurry up just to make a release date and sacrifice quality.

 

Jeff

 

1. Thank you, it is very much appreciated.

 

2. After the email exchanges I've had over the past few days, I have a better understanding of the 'why can't Trumpeter' part. While some modelers may not understand, their (Trumpeter) circumstances are somewhat unique and play a big part in the 'why can't they'.

 

For what it's worth, they are in fact listening and I have the pleasure of being involved in one project for now, however small that involvement is.

 

With regard to the A-6E Intruder..........I have access to two of them and if I understood the message correctly, I'll be able to make sure the kit is correct before it gets released.

 

 

Dave

[Zactoman]

It is great that trumpeter will look into resolving these issues.

While I agree that it is nice that a company corrects flaws in a kit and re-releases it is a good thing, how they go about making the correction is another matter...

 

My question is simply this; does trumpter plan on bringing out some correction kits for those of us who already have the kit?

 

I have 2 flankers (orig issue) you know the ones with the tanked nose, intakes, and clear parts. The newer issues have corrected parts. These parts have never been made available to the public. In short i have several hundred dollars in kits that will require a bunch of resin at a cost to repair.

Due to the circumstances of how they went about correcting the kit, I would not approve.

In this thread I asked the questions:

1. Would Trumpeter have 're-tooled' these parts if I hadn't received so much (public) support for my correction set?

2. If they had 're-tooled' them would they have gotten the shapes correct this time around without using my parts as their "main reference"?

 

Bottom line is that I invested an awful lot of hours researching and mastering the correction set and have lost a lot of business (income, food on the table) because of what happened.

If Trumpeter were to hand out free replacements for the original issue it would be taking even more potential income from my pocket.

I never did receive any kind of compensation, acknowledgement or credit and was never asked for permission to use my parts.

 

I'm a model maker too. I don't make much money and can barely afford the prices they are charging for kits now-a-days.

I (obviously) care about the accuracy of kits and am very disappointed when I put out big bucks for a kit and it's all wrong.

I'm all for seeing companies correct their mistakes and re-tool their molds if they can and would be all for receiving free replacement parts if I had purchased the kit.

I'd even be OK with being able to pay a small sum to order the corrected parts.

But I'm also a firm believer in fair business practices.

As a very small company I can't afford to take on a huge company, over-seas, in China no less, over copyright infringement.

 

In the past we've seen that they have released kits with some big flaws that could have been avoided with better research and more attention to detail.

Now they are apparently seeking free help from the internet modeling community.

I do hope that future kits of theirs are more accurate and not fatally flawed and am particularly looking forward to the Intruder kit.

 

I would just encourage them to go about their business in a more respectful manor.

To compensate the folks who help with their reference.

To hire a more competent staff with a better eye for shapes and details.

To hire consultants to check their future releases before they go to steel tooling as well as to check the spelling and accuracy of their decals.

Don't rush the kits to market. Get it right first!

 

Trumpeter has grown to become a giant in the hobby industry. They can afford to operate professionally.

 

 

The A 7 / f 100 could use some work, the f 105 too.

Are you trying to put me completely out of business?

 

[LSP_Kevin]

2. After the email exchanges I've had over the past few days, I have a better understanding of the 'why can't Trumpeter' part. While some modelers may not understand, their (Trumpeter) circumstances are somewhat unique and play a big part in the 'why can't they'.

 

An educated guess tells me this has a lot to do with the Great Firewall of China. I'm presuming that they don't have the ability to flit around the globe measuring potential subjects, and that their access to western books and (more particularly) websites is greatly restricted. They probably can't even access LSP directly. This provides them with unique research challenges that would explain many of their otherwise obvious errors.

 

Kev

[LSP_Ray]

While I agree that it is nice that a company corrects flaws in a kit and re-releases it is a good thing, how they go about making the correction is another matter...

 

Due to the circumstances of how they went about correcting the kit, I would not approve.

In this thread I asked the questions:

1. Would Trumpeter have 're-tooled' these parts if I hadn't received so much (public) support for my correction set?

2. If they had 're-tooled' them would they have gotten the shapes correct this time around without using my parts as their "main reference"?

 

Bottom line is that I invested an awful lot of hours researching and mastering the correction set and have lost a lot of business (income, food on the table) because of what happened.

If Trumpeter were to hand out free replacements for the original issue it would be taking even more potential income from my pocket.

I never did receive any kind of compensation, acknowledgement or credit and was never asked for permission to use my parts.

 

I'm a model maker too. I don't make much money and can barely afford the prices they are charging for kits now-a-days.

I (obviously) care about the accuracy of kits and am very disappointed when I put out big bucks for a kit and it's all wrong.

I'm all for seeing companies correct their mistakes and re-tool their molds if they can and would be all for receiving free replacement parts if I had purchased the kit.

I'd even be OK with being able to pay a small sum to order the corrected parts.

But I'm also a firm believer in fair business practices.

As a very small company I can't afford to take on a huge company, over-seas, in China no less, over copyright infringement.

 

In the past we've seen that they have released kits with some big flaws that could have been avoided with better research and more attention to detail.

Now they are apparently seeking free help from the internet modeling community.

I do hope that future kits of theirs are more accurate and not fatally flawed and am particularly looking forward to the Intruder kit.

 

I would just encourage them to go about their business in a more respectful manor.

To compensate the folks who help with their reference.

To hire a more competent staff with a better eye for shapes and details.

To hire consultants to check their future releases before they go to steel tooling as well as to check the spelling and accuracy of their decals.

Don't rush the kits to market. Get it right first!

 

Trumpeter has grown to become a giant in the hobby industry. They can afford to operate professionally.

Are you trying to put me completely out of business?

 

 

Hello Zactoman!

FYI: I bought your whole enchilada for the Su-27 so I did my part (and the weapons & pylons are on my future purchase list!).

 

FYI part II: DML (hmmm also a Chinese company...) does the exact same thing to us in the 1/35th military modeling world! Their PzIV's are a case in point; later issued versions have something like over 60 corrections. Sometimes you can tell which are the better ones because they usually are a slightly differently variant or different markings, but typically re-releases end up with fixes too, in the exact same boxing as before and it is a crap shoot when you buy one as you can't be sure of the age of the kit. It makes you hesitate buying any kit from them, especially a first release!!! Obviously, the same is becoming a problem with Trumpeter.

[Barry]

I think were all beginning to see this for what it is; a transfer of technology along with capital. No I'm not a conspiracy theorist it’s just economics 101; the ROI to China is I suspect very high. Notice I said China not Trumpeter or DML they are simply the “store front”.

 

World politics aside: they are willing to produce it “because” we are willing to buy. We make the purchase even though the cost rises with every new release. The rising cost is driven by many factors when in reality it is driven by our desire to have these kits and our willingness to pay their price for them. I am a contributor and likely to remain one. I just wonder what price we are “really” paying. How is it that the Chinese companies find it profitable to produce so many kits that no other mainstream manufacture is willing to touch? It has to be the $$$$$$$$.

 

I believe we in the LSP modeling community are a prime target. We have been nearly starved for years for a larger variety in larger scales and they are filling the demand so fast we can hardly keep pace. We pay for the development in 1/24 or 1/32 then they scale down and reproduce in a smaller scale for an even larger market at a higher ROI. It cost Trumpeter nothing less on their investment to produce a kit that is less than it could be. Why: because they have done one meaningful piece of recon. They have listened to and have given us what we have been asking for.

 

To Chris’s point I ask; where would our modeling be without Zactomodels, AMS Resin, Fisher Models, J Rutman and all the other “small” businesses run by modelers? These guys willing give up a lot of their personal modeling time to produce kits to enhance or in the case of Trumpeter “correct” their kits and make a little profit as well. Jerry has been making corrections to Revell kits several years now. How many Revell kits have been improved and corrected using the results of his personal efforts?

 

I hope that Chris, Harold, Paul, Jerry and all the others will continue to provide use with the fruits of their labor. Remember they do it more for the satisfaction of doing it and doing it right that for the ROI. I can assure you all that they would enjoy having a fraction of Trumpeter’s profits.

 

While reading Dave’s “constructive review” of the Harrier the first thought that came to mine was that Chris, Harold or Paul would jump in and provide us with the bits and pieces needed to correct and improve the Harrier and I still hope they will. I have my kit and it is highly unlikely that I will purchase another at $120.00. I would rather spend that same amount to keep one or more of those guys in business and end up with a model that is a collaborative effort of modelers. If I can get the kit I want from Tamiya or Hasegawa then I will but if it is only available from Trumpeter then I will get it there and that’s the bottom line……

 

Barry

[Dave Roof]

An educated guess tells me this has a lot to do with the Great Firewall of China. I'm presuming that they don't have the ability to flit around the globe measuring potential subjects, and that their access to western books and (more particularly) websites is greatly restricted. They probably can't even access LSP directly. This provides them with unique research challenges that would explain many of their otherwise obvious errors.

 

Kev

 

Bingo!

 

And that right there Gentlemen, is it in a nutshell. I was ignorant of this fact until my recent conversations with Mr. Mason. I am willing to help with subjects I know, and they are willing to accept that help. A win/win situation for all. If and when I receive word of a potential subject that I have no knowledge of, you can bet your a$$ I'll be contacting the modelers that do know that subject well to help!

 

Also, if they keep with the pro-active approach of seeking help on-line (Jaguar on ARC as an example), things can only get better.

 

Dave

[jozef]

Bingo!

 

And that right there Gentlemen, is it in a nutshell. I was ignorant of this fact until my recent conversations with Mr. Mason. I am willing to help with subjects I know, and they are willing to accept that help. A win/win situation for all. If and when I receive word of a potential subject that I have no knowledge of, you can bet your a$$ I'll be contacting the modelers that do know that subject well to help!

 

Also, if they keep with the pro-active approach of seeking help on-line (Jaguar on ARC as an example), things can only get better.

 

Dave

 

Hi Dave (and all)

 

Thi is certainly good news. I keep my fingers crossed and wish good luck to all involved.

 

Jozef

[Scat]

Trying not to play the devils advocate, but shouldn't you be careful in not breaking military secrecy laws and the like in transferring potentially secret info to the 'enemy' . Even if it is just to help get the details right in a kit. I like every one else want accuracy for the money we pay but not if you end up in trouble over it. Good luck we all hoping this is a process the manufacturers take on.

[LSP_Matt]

I suspect Daves been in the Marines long enough to know the boundaries. It wouldn't be hard to demonstrate that most of the info he's providing is readily available in the public domain. You only have to go to an airshow where you can get up close with a camera. As for enemy...I think the greatest ones are lack of communication and ignorance.

 

Good that you're looking out for him though.

 

Great review info Dave and fantastic to see a positive relationship developing across borders. Its so easy to whinge and moan but to develop a positive relationship where a win-win situation is the outcome is a noteworthy effort. Well done mate. (tip-the-hat) You should justifiably feel proud.

 

Cheers Matty

[Radub]

Trying not to play the devils advocate, but shouldn't you be careful in not breaking military secrecy laws and the like in transferring potentially secret info to the 'enemy' . Even if it is just to help get the details right in a kit. I like every one else want accuracy for the money we pay but not if you end up in trouble over it. Good luck we all hoping this is a process the manufacturers take on.

 

"Detail and Scale" had a series of very detailed books since the cold war, and the AV-8 was covered during that period. The "enemy", whoever that may be, had plenty of chance to peruse them. It is part of the whole "deterrent" thing. Just like having a well-publicised nuclear arsenal, if you were the "enemy", once you had this knowlege, you would think twice. Further proof of the lack of sensitivity of this info is that none of the "enemies" managed to successfully copy this type of vertical take-off by just looking at photos and books. This still remains the only game in town, despite shared knowledge.

The truth of the matter is that none of the things one can see on the internet, in books or at airshows are anything groundbreaking or new. Aerodynamics, newtonian laws, mechanics, etc, are universal. What makes the difefrence is what is inside, electronic/computer hardware and software, ECM, radars, alloys and materials used in engines, chemical composition of explosives, etc. that give the "edge" and they are carefully protected.

Radu

[Dave Roof]

Trying not to play the devils advocate, but shouldn't you be careful in not breaking military secrecy laws and the like in transferring potentially secret info to the 'enemy' . Even if it is just to help get the details right in a kit. I like every one else want accuracy for the money we pay but not if you end up in trouble over it. Good luck we all hoping this is a process the manufacturers take on.

 

 

Sir,

 

As it's been pointed out, I know what I'm doing. I've been in the Marine Corps for close to 22 years and I retire in 4 months. I am not going to jeopardize my career over a plastic model, and for anyone to believe I would is simply absurd.

 

I am aware of what I can and can't share and clear everything through the proper chain of command before doing so.

 

Respectfully,

 

Dave

[Pfuf]

LoL I think the people that need to know about secret's know these and a model company is something completly diffrend.

johan

 

Love thise thread.

[Scat]

Please let me make it clear that I'm on your side Dave. There is no doubt in my mind of your ability to judge the situation correctly. It was just a question from a person in a country along way away from yours, but with the same desire to buy a product that is worth the money we pay for it. May be its a cultural thing that you misunderstood the direction in my question. But then that's why I asked it. This is a forum after all.

 

 

Jason

[jbrundt]

Trying not to play the devils advocate, but shouldn't you be careful in not breaking military secrecy laws and the like in transferring potentially secret info to the 'enemy' . Even if it is just to help get the details right in a kit. I like every one else want accuracy for the money we pay but not if you end up in trouble over it. Good luck we all hoping this is a process the manufacturers take on.

 

Most everything on the Harrier is unclassified. If it was classified you can bet your bottom Dave (or anyone else for that matter) wouldn't even get close to the airframe. The Harrier has been around for 30 years now. It's not really a "high tech" aircraft like a F-117 or F-18E/F. Plus much of the information on the Harrier is already in the public domain.

 

As long as you do not disclose proprietary information you are OK. And as Dave said anything in question should be cleared through the proper channels. I work at Boeing and have worked on all the major fighter programs and I could tell you way more things about many of these aircraft and how they are built, equipped and used but I am not allowed to. Which is a shame but that is the way it is....

 

Many times I read these posts and have to grit my teeth knowing I could give input but am not privy to do so.

 

Jeff

[Rob Colvin]

Zacto .... put you out of business LOL. Nothing trumpeter could do would ever match your parts, casting, detail, or reasearch. I normally buy more than 1 copy of a kit I would like my personal shelf sitters to look like what they are supposed to look like with out any major mod. The ones I enter in a contest/ sale well that is another story (they get all the goodies). Trumpeter has never put correction kits out (flanker for Example), so i doubt you would have an issue . It is sad that the issues came up with those jets in my previous post. Those are among my favorites. The issues made a differance between getting one kit or many (face it the prices and issues lol).

 

S!

Rob