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Vincent/MDC

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Everything posted by Vincent/MDC

  1. Vincent/MDC

    Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

    Not really I posted the picture to show what looked like an paint application issue. I have nowhere stated that "because cover 1 in RLM76 is so different from cover 2 in greenish hue, cover 2 is the proof that a new color existed", which in essence is what many have done here. Once again, when i say "color", i mean RLM reference, not hue. I totally agree that late in the war we have seen parts of a/c with hues that do not match what we expect the official hues. My point is : are these variations of known official RLM paints or are these undocumented new paints. So far this thread has brough no proof of the second hypothesis. I really encourage people here to get hold on the british paint evaluation done right after the war. They toured the various factories, interviewed a lot of people. Their primary interests was the supply situation, the formulations and the brand new epoxy type paints that the germans developed. Several paints compositions are documented in it. It is in this survey that i've learned about the late war RLM66 new composition, which the british report describes as "Dark grey green" if i recall correctly and the intent to replace RLM02 by the new RLM66 which became a primer/color combo. You can see evidences of that replacement on Me163 for example and on some landing gears. You can see the "old" 66 and the "new" one side by side in that Me163 cockpit (notice how green it looks): I believe what needs to be proven is that new designations were introduced and as long as this is not done, i will stick with what is known, that is the latest introduced reference was RLM83 and that every observed hue on parts and photos results from application issues of the existing references or mixes of existing reference. I will surely not use my own garage of parts to prove the existence of new references But i think this thread has reached its conclusion as far as I'm concerned, so signing off
  2. Vincent/MDC

    Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

    For me, the essence of the problem in "having some parts in a garage" is the same as having a door from a repainted car and say "the manufacturer's color chart is incomplete, i have a pink mustang door in my garage" proper research should allow us to know if the pink was an undocumented option or a spare part delivered unpainted and painted pink. You get the idea
  3. Vincent/MDC

    Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

    Jurgen Kiroff is another one. I don't consider these 2 gentlemen as unreliable and i would be very surprised if they did not have contacts with the paint manufacturers
  4. Vincent/MDC

    Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

    That's one
  5. Vincent/MDC

    Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

    My point is that a lot of the discussions revolve around picture analysis (can be unreliable and misleading) and thin air speculations. What i would love to see is knowledgeable input on : * Manufacturer supply chain * WW2 german paint composition * Paint application Because these are central to understanding the apparition of what we consider new colors, namely the greenish 76, whitish 76, brownish 76 and greenish 02. As i said, i own parts in each of these colors and they are not a valid basis to say new colors appeared. Mr Ullman who had done quite an extensive job in the 3 areas i listed is also convinced that these (except the 02 of course) are variations of 76 , mostly due to change composition. Knowing the german psyche, if you deliver tins of paint paste labelled 76, they'll apply it duefully, even if i takes a green or white tint while drying - no questions asked. So, no need to be offended, but i feel the debate is at this point not backed by any industrial reality. Maybe english not being my native language does not help but when i talk about colors, i do not mean hue. I mean formula Vincent
  6. Vincent/MDC

    Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

    are talking about the greenish color or the tan one ? because to me they could be different. We must also take into account the film and how it captures colors. The pictures i posted were taken under a high quality true day light light source and as you can see, it's really greenish
  7. Vincent/MDC

    Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

    pictures are too small to be of any use and i don't see any green of them
  8. Vincent/MDC

    Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

    that's because it wasn't a new color, just a revised formulation. They did the same with rlm66 by the way: later in the war it got a distinct greenish tint. you see that on Komets and Ta152 and the green comes from the priming agent which might be the very same thing we see on the 76
  9. Vincent/MDC

    Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

    as i explained earlier, some sort of reaction seems to happen on the outer layer of the painted surface and the reaction may be different on different thicknesses. I'm pretty sure it looked grey blue in the can and even during spraying. you can also see hints of that effect on the australian G6 : what seens to be a poor paint job might be the very same thing i see on my parts
  10. Vincent/MDC

    Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

    Well, there are a few things pretty established about this color : 1) it did not receive a new designation. Whatever it was, it was supplied under an existing color code 2) application examples of this color matches application of RLM76. Whenever the color is found, it's at a place where RLM76 is called for It is therefore pretty convincing to say that this color was known as RLM76 to the supply chain The other question is of course, was the hue intentional. German researchers agree with my analysis that the greenish hue was the unexpected result of a formulation change. When looking at the parts in my possession, it is evident that there is considerable hue variation within that color. Depending on the paint thickness on the part, hue ranges from "normal" RLM76 without any hint of green, greenish 76 and even brownish 76. The next question is, what benefit this hue would have if intentional. The answer is pretty clear : none. A super light green does not really offer better ground concealement, sorry to break some myths here. The germans themselves did not believe in it either because when you have a look at the Me 109K4 camo scheme, it's pretty much darker greens and browns covering the sides and wings of the a/c. That makes more sense. So far in this thread I have not see any of the really knowledgeable reseachers dispute that this color is a variation of RLM76.
  11. Vincent/MDC

    Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

    Amazing that the germans invented a new color and did not know about it
  12. Vincent/MDC

    Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

    the green is rlm76, 100% sure about that. It's the oozing that gives the impression that it's on top of normal 76 but all the parts i have show the exact same thing. It doesn't make any sense that the part would be painted 76, then the green then the top camo on top of both. No book will ever prove the existence of a new color, even the most respected german researchers have not found a hint. so the green not being 76 ? I hope you have some damn good original document proving it, otherwise sorry but i'm calling bs on that one (like the supposed use of rlm02 on master compasses when they were delivered in neutral grey)
  13. Vincent/MDC

    Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

    Are you serious ? If you look at the production stats for the Me109, you'll see that there wasn't a real problem with production of the a/c. There was a terrible problem with putting pilots and fuel inside the newly constructed machines but i've yet to find a wartime document stressing how the paint situation is slowing down production. If you have such a document, i'd be happy that you share it with us In fact, the opposite was found out by the allies as they overan Germany : they were kinda shocked how relatively unaffected the production was. What was affected big time was the delivery of machines to the units and that had nothing to do with paint. There is one exception and it's the dispersed production of Me-262 and He162. There was a paint challenge as the supply chain was a bit off the normal track but even with the 262 it was a short term thing.
  14. Vincent/MDC

    Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

    I've seen the thinning ratios and solvents documented delivered to the finnish airforce when they purchased RLM65, 74, 75 and 76 from Germany through Pori I doubt it was an export thing. And there's nothing "complicated" about the german a/c paints. They used a bit of different philosophy when compared to british or american paints but thinning them was a pretty simple matter. RLM02, RLM65, RLM76 and RLM78 were priming/camo combos, the other colors were coloring only but for one given class of paint, the thinning was the same. I'm just giving the infos i have obtained over the years. Everyone is free to believe or not. What are the factual infos that you have ? can you share ?
  15. Vincent/MDC

    Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

    I rely on the 1945 and 1946 surveys done by the RAF to assess the effects of both their bombing campaign and the US one on the german a/c indusry. It is clearly stated in these surveys that paint production and storage was never affected for long and that delivery of the finished products was steady all across the territory. Remember that we are talking here about concentrated pastes that were diluted at the painting stage. It was a very compact and easy good to transport in large quantities. If the germans did not see a problem in 1945, why would i see one in 2019 ? Vincent
  16. Vincent/MDC

    Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

    I don't even remember myself
  17. Vincent/MDC

    Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

    no problem
  18. Vincent/MDC

    Mark31 is in Hospital

    Bon retablissement
  19. Vincent/MDC

    Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

    you will notice that it can turn either green or beige, depending on the paint layer thickness My wife's knitting wool serves no purpose btw, i just used her "true daylight" light to get the proper white balance V
  20. Vincent/MDC

    Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

    Here is an example of the parts i have. Both canon port covers, both from D9. You can see one is regular 76 while the other is the greenish 76. The little spekles are the binder that chipped away, revealing a beautiful pigment layer of regular 76. I know the green isn't a repaint because it is under the top side color as a primer (RLM81 here) : <expired picture>
  21. Vincent/MDC

    Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

    I believe it started as soon as the paint was dry but got worst over time. My comment was about the so called rlm84, not about any other shade of color. late war RLM 76 was both a primer and a camouflage color. when looking at the samples i have with the green tint, it's almost as if the primer component of the paint (the thing that makes rlm02 green) has migrated on top of the pigments. And as a matter of fact, the paint adhesion isn't great either. perhaps the new combined formulation required a metal preparation which, if not done, made the paint react in that way ?
  22. Vincent/MDC

    WWII Luftwaffe wire color

    single electrical lines were quite bright yellow, bundled lines were typically covered in braided dull aluminium and radio lines were dark blue. You had exceptions here and there but these were the majority. Typically the single yellow lines had a tiny pressed number tag near the end to know where to connect it. This codes was repeated on wiring diagrams in manuals
  23. Vincent/MDC

    Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

    By the way, about the beige color or so called RLM84 : I have several Fw190 D9 parts wih this color. I took a couple of them to try to establish the origin of that color. In both cases, i found, pigment wise, a normal RLM76 but the greenish tint came from what appeared to be pigment carrier oozing on top of the pigmented layer in this greenish hue. With model, i was able to reproduce the exact same effect by painting the part in RLM76 first then overspraying a layer of diluted tamiya clear green. Therefore i'm with Mr Ullman on that one : the so called RLM84 is plain normal RLM76 where the binding agent has turned green and oozed over the pigments. Why is that is another question but what is clear is that the painters were applying paint labelled RLM76 at that time
  24. Vincent/MDC

    Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

    HI I think it is important to stop thinking as modelers and start thinking within the conditions of that time. 1) a factory was NOT shipping out a/c in new colors or new scheme. There was rather precise guidelines on what color is to be used and, if substitution is required, what to subtitute for. This is why you see different colors used late in the war BUT the overall schemes are unchanged. In addition, the paint supply system and stocks were never a real problem until the end of the war. Unpainted undersides on Me109 and Fw190 are not due to paint shortage but desire to speed up wing production 2) in a situation where you were receiving crappier and crappier a/c to replace your losses, desire to keep the good ones flying will be strong and given that you don't get that much fuel to fly, you know your good a/c will spend a great deal of time on the ground 3) at that stage, units did not experience paint shortages, mainly because the suppliers were quite close and the consumption low (since you don't repair planes that much anymore) and there was no workforce shortage to perform a paint job (as a matter of fact, most of the me109G and Fw190D9 parts that i own show evidences of field repaint) So i remain convinced that this was a unit level thing, on specific a/c.
  25. Vincent/MDC

    Erla 109G-10 KG(J)6

    Hi I think you used the wrong canon cover in the cockpit. The one on the pictures looks a lot like the 30mm and i don't think Erla ever produced G10/U4 Best regards Vincent
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