Juggernut

I believe you can buy either the closed set or the open set judging by the sticker on the right side of the box.

Always wondered... What's the difference between the MH-60G and the HH-60G Pave Hawk?

Thanks for the vote of confidence! I'll keep it in mind as I plug along with those parts of the build that make me think "Why did I start this?" Thanks Maru for your vote of confidence. To quote Chief Dan George from the Movie "The Outlaw Josey Wales" (Lone Wadi), I shall "endeavor to persevere." I have the knowledge, and possibly the skillset needed; i just need to make sure I don't get ahead of myself and foul it all up. I'm still hashing out exactly which details I'll replace on the old dinosaur and which I'll keep. I also chose this aircraft so I wouldn't have to create a new F style nose blister aside from the nose art being at a decent angle so I can replicate it. I also found a dead-on side shot of the nose art (in B&W) so I can remove any parallax that I might otherwise inject into the illustration. Come to think of it, I'd better fire up the Alps printer to make sure it still works. I haven't used it in years.

Thanks for looking in. I'm going to attempt to create Fifinella, a B-17G from the 91st Bomb Group (Heavy) from WWII using the Revellogram 1/48 B-17G kit. If this turns out as well as I'm hoping for, I will be entering this build into IPMS competitions at some point. That though, is a BIG IF. Historical Context - Fifinella was a B-17G-35-DL, serial number: 42-107030. She was added to the USAAF Inventory on February 4, 1944. She arrived overseas (England I presume) March 6, 1944; gained by the 91st BG March 25, 1944 (Havelaar, 222) and assigned to the 322nd Bombardment Squadron. She was assigned radio call letter T. She flew her first combat mission on March 29, 1944 and flew 53 more missions before being lost on mission in support of Allied ground forces on August 13, 1944 (Bowden, 76) over Epreville, France. (Havelaar, 222) Fifinella took a direct hit from flak in the cockpit just prior to unloading her bombs which caused a fire to break out with oxygen bottles exploding and leaking hydraulic fluid feeding the inferno. She stayed with the formation long enough to drop her bombs after which the pilot, 1st Lt. Thomas Smith could no longer maintain control and she veered upwards at a steep angle to the left. For four minutes, the crew fought the bomber as she dove towards the earth in her death dive and succeeded in leveling the bomber out several times before she succumbed to the inevitable (Bowden, 76). Surprisingly, there is only one KIA listed and presumably, that would be Lt. Thomas Smith. The rest of the crew (8 total) either evaded capture or were interred as POW's. (Havelaar, 222) Fifinella did not have a pumpkin (aka Cheyenne) tail turret. I have confirmed that. Nose Art - Fifinella was a character created by Walt Disney as a badge for the Women's Air Service Pilots' (WASP's) [Formerly the Women's Auxiliary Ferrying Squadron and the Women's Flying Training Detachment]. Fifinella was a winged female gremlin in a flying suit. Tony Starcer (the preeminent artist within the 91st BG) created the nose art in April 1944. He added the bomb to add significance to the mission the 91st was assigned rather than just have Fifinella leaping from the sky. (Bowden, 75) Choice of Subject - I've always had a fondness for the 91st BG for as long as the Monogram 1/48 B-17G has been around (since 1975). I've also had an aversion to commercially available decal subjects (as far as the B-17 is concerned) preferring to create my own subjects - a one-of-a-kind subject. That way I probably wouldn't see another aircraft on the contest tables in the exact same markings I have chosen; I have seen that happen before. So, I acquired an Alps printer and Adobe Illustrator X (it's way old now but I refuse to pay a subscription for the newest version) but works just fine. I will create Fifinella from all the available source images I can find (the color image above will be heavily relied on). There are noticeable scripted notes, names, etc. around the bomber. There are probably more than the images reveal so I will state up front that my creation may not be completely historically accurate as far as markings are concerned but I will endeavor to come as close as I can. Being a B-17G-35-DL, creates a few "issues" with the Revellogram kit, mainly that the waist windows are staggered on the real aircraft so that will be my first task. If anyone has further images (or knows of any) of Fifinella, I'd be interested in seeing them. Please post them here in this build thread. Likewise if you know of any B-17G-35-DL specific traits that are missing from the 1/48 Revellogram kit, by all mean, let me know what they are and I'll do my best to incorporate the changes. Since she wasn't lost until August 1944, she would have had the typical red vertical and horizontal tails and wingtips. She won't have any deice boots either. References - I have several references and as I refer to them, I'll update this section. Bowden, Ray (1993). Plane Names and Fancy Noses,The 91st Bomb Group (Heavy) United States Army Air Force. Design Oracle Partnership in association with USAAF Nose Art Research Project. Dorset. UK. Havelaar, Marion. Ness, William N. (1995) The Ragged Irregulars of Bassingbourn, The 91st Bombardment Group in WWII. Schiffer Publishing Ltd. PA, USA. The Build Begins: The first thing I chose to do was to stagger the waist windows. I don't know if they're exactly correct but they seem to be very close based on measurements of the kit window and Boeing blueprints. Even though I'll use blueprints, there's always room for me to screw it up somehow. Notice how the new "hole" seems to be a bit larger than the filled in one? The new one is closer to the measurements I obtained from the window blueprint. You'll also note that even though I measured the window size BEFORE cutting, I still managed to oversize it, hence the styrene strip at the forward and bottom edges. I think I placed it correctly.... It's supposed to be three fuselage formers forward (or so I've read). It looks right to me compared to photos I'm looking at. I also took one of the fuselage decals and placed it temporarily between the crew entry door and the aft edge of the waist window and it seems to fit very close in proximity to what I'm seeing in photos of B-17G's with staggered waist windows. I did notice that the lower sill of the window seems to be a little bit low in relation to the crew entry door window but It's close enough (0.030 inches) that I'm not going to risk destroying what I've managed to accomplish. I got lucky I think. I also think I'm going to scribe this model. With all the sanding I'm doing, I'm obliterating the raised panel lines. The jury is still out on that but that's the plan as of today. Check back in from time-to-time. I'm slow but motivated with this model.

RNEIAAF? Which air arm is that; the Royal New England Infidel Anarchial Air Force?

To add a little bit... According to what I've read, there were two different styles of props used on Lanc's. The early "needle blade" type and the later "paddle blade" type. The Lanc photo's above appear to be the paddle blade type. Now whether or not they're the same as the Mosquito's props, I haven't a clue but they sure don't look the same. Just noticed this: If the Mosquito used Hamilton-Standard props (the logo is conspicuously absent), then they're certainly different from what's shown on the Lanc in the photo's above. My eyes aren't seeing minute details but aren't those Rotol prop logos on the Lanc prop blades?

Yes, Christian (Tourist) is extremely knowledgeable regarding P-51's. I would take his replies as close to Gospel as can be had. Yep, sure does...and without substantiating evidence (i.e., photo of the wheel wells in your chosen subject), nobody can prove you wrong.

Ok, ask away... I'll do my best to give you accurate information. Alright, here we go: For markings, I will rely on one source primarily. SOURCE: Freeman, Roger A. (1997). The Mighty Eighth Warpaint and Heraldry, Arms & Armour Press. London. UK (various pages) Serial numbers are standard stencil, 15" in height. See image below (a section of a Boeing blueprint). There are variations on where the serial number is positioned on the tail for some aircraft. All you're worried about is the distance between the numerals and the width of the stroke. You can plainly see where to locate the serial number on the tail from the photo you provided. Caveat: If the decals aren't the correct height/stroke, forego what is shown here and duplicate what's on the decal numerals you're using; it might look out of place otherwise. Fuselage codes (squadron and plane-in-squadron [radio call letter]) are reported to be 36" X 18" (with the exception of the letter W) in black on NMF aircraft (Freeman 68). The 18" horizontal measurement is an educated guess on my part based on evaluation of extant photographs and comparing them with existing decal sheets (some of which do not appear to be correct by comparison with existing images). 24" plane-in-squadron (radio call letter) under the serial number, again in black on NMF aircraft. There is evidence that these sizes varied to some extent so evaluate all photographic evidence first; create a masking tape mockup and see what looks like the photo. Port side fuselage codes LG*U. Starboard side fuselage codes may be U*LG but as I've seen with a lot of 322nd BS staggered waist B-17G's, it's most likely LG*U with the U positioned in front of the waist window. The LG will be located immediately forward of the horizontal stabilizer as the U is on the port side. I'll check my references and see if there's an image of Incendiary Blonde in a formation that shows her starboard side. In order to verify that the letters are the correct size, what I do is cut them out of masking tape and apply them to the model in their respective positions. If they look right, they are right and vice versa. 1st AD ID marking (Triangle A) on vertical fin is equilateral 72", (Freeman 68) black with a white letter A . The stroke width on the A is to be 6" (Freeman 37). For your chosen aircraft, the A is a typical stencil style A with the legs of the A, not parallel to the sides of the underlying triangle, in white. Some aircraft in the 91st have a NMF letter A on the black triangle. Other aircraft in the 91st have such a division insignia and still others have placement of the 1st AD symbol in different locations on the tail. Your chosen aircraft seems to be the typical location. (I have not yet seen any specific measurements on the A but there must've been a standard). 1st AD ID marking (Triangle A) on the upper starboard wing in most instances 96" equilateral triangle; white 57" (4.75 feet) A on black triangle for your chosen aircraft with a 7" stroke width. Freeman states on page 36 that the apex of the 1st AD ID marking is 96" inboard of the wingtip. I believe this to be incorrect but I have not confirmed it just yet. The illustration of the 1st AD on that page just doesn't appear to be correct. This one's going to take some evaluation to either prove or disprove. Stay tuned.... I presume it'll be a little bit before you're ready for paint so I think I have some time to iron out the inconsistencies. If you've looked at some of the available decals you'll notice that those of the 91st (Little Miss Mischief in particular) do not comply with the above standards. Yet, if you look at photos of her you'll notice that the marking do conform to the above standards... an obvious error on the part of the decal manufacturer (for what reason is beyond me as there's ample evidence to do it correctly). Last bit about Little Miss Mischief, particularly her vertical fin leading edge... She did not have a black leading edge where part of the deicer boot would have been; it's red, just like the photo of Incendiary Blonde you posted above. Another error on the part of more than one decal manufacturer. Deice boots were routinely removed to prevent excess drag on the airframe from a battle damaged boot. Yes, there are photos of aircraft with them on.... When they were removed is anyone's guess but by and large, they were removed. You'll note in your photo above, Incendiary Blonde has no deice boots and she doesn't even have her nose art or mission symbols yet! The saga continues

Thanks for the vote of confidence, B-17. There are others that know more and/or have different knowledge than I with respect to the old girl but I have a little knowledge to share. I'm really, really fond of the 91st BG and have a couple of very good references on that group, one by a bombardier with that group. I found your subject aircraft by looking up the serial number in one of the books and there's a photo in the other book that shows the nose art (done by Sgt. Tony Starcer of course). Decal choices are somewhat limited by both the subject kit and the decal manufacturer's themselves. By-and-large, the most numerous choices for the HK B-17G come from Kit's World. I see you've already got a set. Are you not planning on using those? If you're liking that big, red tail (like me), I can help you with those markings but I can't do the nose art for Incendiary Blonde without a lot of effort. I have done some of the nose art for 91st ships but unfortunately, that's not one of them and to add insult to injury, they're all meant for the 1/48 Revellogram B-17G. Should you want to paint the 91st markings, I can provide you detailed information for painting the squadron/plane-in-squadron codes (LG*U), the triangle A, and the plane-in-squadron letter on the tail. If you're fancying a camouflaged aircraft, there were 225 Douglas built aircraft that have all the traits in the HK kit and were painted OD/NG. That's an option but it looks like you've decided on a bare aluminum aircraft judging by what you posted above. There are some "inaccuracies" with the kit which you can find with a quick search on this site. Some are easy fixes, others not so much. If you're not too finicky, they won't bother you and in the end, you'll have a model that resembles a B-17G. I had one of these kits when it was first released and I promptly sold it because I was too finicky at that time. Age has a way of weeding out the important from the unimportant. To that end, I purchased the B-17E/F when it was released... I still have it but now I'm wrestling with the fact that's it's just too damn big to display...a thought that never had bothered me previously. I can offer some help with questions about detail inaccuracies (i.e., the external ammo cans on the ball turret...they did not exist on any wartime B-17G's, let alone mounted on bulkhead 6. They were mostly meant for other aircraft such as the B-24 Liberator and its derivatives). I do have information on the upper local turret coming from the National Air and Space Museum but it has not arrived yet. I'm all ears and eyes, looking forward to living vicariously through your build. Me, I'm looking at the Revellogram B-17G kit again, as I found out a favorite aircraft of mine, did not have a pumpkin (aka Cheyenne) tail turret. Of course, it's a 91st ship and I have not done the nose art for her yet.... I'm getting ready to start that endeavor in the not-too-distant future.

Nice...Incendiary Blonde was the name she eventually flew with. Too bad you won't be doing the nose art. There's a nice shot of her nose in Plane Names and Fancy Noses, the 91st Bomb Group (Heavy) United States Army Air Force by Ray Bowden.

I've never had them rub off but I've had the ink scratch off (tomato-tomahto?). I normally don't seal them until after they're on the model and I don't print them until I'm ready to use them, minimizing the chances that I'll scratch the decal. For those that don't know, the Alps printer ink is like a wax (for lack of a better term) that sits on the decal paper. If you rub your fingernail across the decal, it will scratch the ink (wax) off and that decal will be ruined. Sealing may minimize or prevent damage on the paper...I can't say for sure never having done it. For sure, it'll make the decal more resistant to abrasion damage but how much more, I cannot say.

I will agree with that... It does seem like a waste but I've noticed that ZM seems to do that with a lot of the engines they render. I think I first noticed it on the R-3350 in the Skyraider kit and initially thought "why bother?" It must be an OCD thing with ZM to include those details; that's all I can think of at this point... Sorry about the build thread scope creep.

Nope, you're correct.

Nicely done!

Could you please explain what you're referring to? After working on, tearing apart, and rebuilding dozens of aircraft radial piston engines, it sure looks like what I've seen inside these beasts. Is everything there inside the crankcase? Hell no, it's not a detailed cutaway model of the engine to be displayed outside the aircraft in and of itself. The compression ring rendering on the pistons are a little large and the oil scraper ring is not rendered but the pistons are nicely done, the articulating rods are easily identified and nicely rendered and the master rod is done well. The knuckle pin is not rendered and the valves aren't shown but with the costs involved and the designed level of detail, that's completely understandable. Other than that, what's not looking like the inside of a piston (I think you mean cylinder as the inside of a piston is pretty much hollow).

Tango Papa decal paper... Microsol and/or Solvaset. Don't use ink sealer, I have an Alps printer.

According to the F-5E flight manual, those vents appear to be cooling air inlets/outlets for the avionics equipment that's situated right above that panel...that's my best guess at this point.

Every photo I can find that shows the areas in question do not have those holes.

Which Roger Freeman book is it that states the B-17 interiors were painted and was subsequently cancelled? I'd like to read that for myself. The upper local turret that comes with the B-17G looks like the A-1C upper local turret which was not used in the B-17 to the best of my information. The B-17G used the A-1A or A-1B upper local turret; nope, they're not even close to be similar to the A-1C. Did David Parker scratchbuild an A-1A upper local turret? Douglas is the only source of the green painted interior of the waist compartment area of the fuselage, Boeing and Vega, nope...bare aluminum. From extant photographs, it also appears (as was pointed out to me from a noted B-17 authority) that the painted interiors of the Douglas ships were done after the installation of the equipment as there is photographic evidence of precisely that. Here's a factoid: The B-17F was the fastest of all production B-17's... camouflage paint and all. You are correct that the cockpit was painted bronze green (per Boeing E&R manual) but the flooring immediately underneath the rudder pedals was left bare metal. I haven't discovered if this was steel sheet, stainless or just plain aluminum. I haven't gotten into the blueprints that far yet. Sweet Pea, a Douglas B-17G-25-DL w/painted waist section.

This is so simple.... put one together, take a photo of the assembly and post it.... To quote a famous somebody, sometime... a picture is worth a thousand words.

I disagree. The "recipe" of zinc chromate was spelled out in AN-TT-P-656. The natural color of zinc chromate primer is yellow (for lack of the exact term for the color). Jennings has already said that the coloration (untinted zinc chromate) was based on its chemical makeup, not because pigmentation was added. What's being discussed is the green color of tinted zinc chromate versus the MM color "zinc chromate green". I've already stated that the color of tinted zinc chromate varied with each manufacturer. Per Boeing B-17F E&R manual (T.O. 01-20EF-02 page 439) and B-17G E&R Manual (T.O. 01-20EG-02, page 422) "Wherever carbon black tinted primer is specified, it shall consist of or be equivalent to, 8 ounces of carbon black tinting paste (Fuller's No. 790 or equivalent) per gallon of zinc chromate primer." Carbon black tinted primer = interior green, Boeing style. Per Northrop P-61 E&R Manual: "All exposed interior surfaces of the gunner's, pilot's and radio operator's compartments shall be finished with Northrop Cockpit Green (12 oz. of black camouflage enamel AAF 14109 to one gallon of zinc chromate primer Spec.No. AN-TT-P-656)". Interior green, Northrop style. P-51D E&R manual (AN 01-60JE-2, pages 403-406): Various structural members: "zinc chromate primer per AN-TT-P-656". "Interior green "spec no. E-7 flat black to be used." Interior green, North American style.

What is your intended use for that color, if I may ask? To add to what's been said: Zinc Chromate is yellow in color in it's untinted state. If you're wondering about zinc chromate green, that color is not widely used a lot on aircraft that I've been exposed to and does not have a MIL-SPEC (MIL-STD-595/ SAE-AMS-STD-595) equivalent. I can't even find a close proximate in the 595b fan deck I have (yes, I know it's not current..doesn't matter for purposes of this discussion). FS34151 Interior Green is the modern day equivalent of what used to be called tinted zinc chromate. To get tinted zinc chromate, you add black to the yellow zinc chromate in a certain ratio (which I have forgotten). I no longer buy Model Master FS34151 as I had three bottles of it at different times in the past and each bottle was a different shade of green. Now I create my own, the way I've outlined above except I add black to the yellow zinc until it looks right. I don't try and match the FS color chart. For what I build (mostly WWII) the FS system wasn't even around then and manufacturer's mixed their own anyway. As far as WWII US aircraft are concerned, close is good enough. If you mix too much black into the yellow zinc, you'll wind up with olive drab...not close. Modern day stuff is another story. You may find such a shade on some military aircraft in differing spots. I can't think of one offhand but with the environmental friendly paints being developed, zinc is not being used as much as it was in the past (it is a health hazard). That shade of green may be used but it won't be called zinc chromate green. As a "fur-instance", the UH-60M's we converted for FMS at the Sikorsky plant I worked at for a few years (until it closed), came to us partially in helo-drab (don't know the FS for that but it has one), partially in a very gaudy, 1950's kitchen green semi-gloss primer and then we added a water-based greenish-grey primer to our modifications.... This was, of course, prior to it going into the paint booth and getting painted to the customers specifications.

Yes but Harold is in the USA; at least he was....

I'm not surprised either....was just hoping to be surprised by updates/corrections.

Well, I was holding out hope for this one as it would have been the one I wanted but I'll pass - again. Tail turret is wrong and it doesn't appear any changes were made to any of the the tooling to correct the shortcomings of the previously released J kit.